Purging red diesel

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Kurrawong_Kid

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To reduce the staining caused by the red dye to the acceptable taint is it better to use up almost all the red diesel and then refil my 30 gallon tank with white;or keep topping up with white diesel ( at 5 gallons a throw) as convenient from time to time until 30 gallons of white has been put in?. Or will both ultimately have the same result?
 
I bit the bullet at the weekend and managed to get rid of what was left in the tank thanks to a drill pump and a couple of cans, will refill with white before changing the filters as part of the service.
 
Run down to say 2 gal, add 8 gals will give 20% red, run down to 2 gals add 8 gals gives 4% red, run down to 2 gals, fill tank, will then put you well below allowable dye marker limit (0.12mg/l I believe).
 
It may be useful to know how 'presence' of red might be tested, say, in France. If was just a bit 'Rose' would they prosecute? There are some figures on a recent thread indicating the level at which our customs will prosecute. You could use them as a guide line.
Clearly though it is better to run as low as possible before adding white.
 
pcatterall said:
It may be useful to know how 'presence' of red might be tested, say, in France. If was just a bit 'Rose' would they prosecute? There are some figures on a recent thread indicating the level at which our customs will prosecute. You could use them as a guide line.
Clearly though it is better to run as low as possible before adding white.
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I don't have much experience of the French legal system, but I assume that the process would be that some customs official draws a sample from your tank, holds it up to a light and takes a view on the colour. If it's bright red, you're nicked! if they regard it as suspiciously pink, they would have to issue you with some sort of notice and send the sample off for testing at a laboratory. I guess they may issue you with an on-the-spot fine and you may have to pay it, or have the boat impounded - or possibly your travel documents? You are then in the situation of having to appeal against the fine and it all comes down to the results of the laboratory test. The documents I've seen do not explicitly set a lower limit of dye concentration, but they do state that at levels below 0.12mg/l the test becomes unreliable with too many false positive results - hence you should be in a good position to get the fine overturned.
 
maby said:
I don't have much experience of the French legal system, but I assume that the process would be that some customs official draws a sample from your tank, holds it up to a light and takes a view on the colour. If it's bright red, you're nicked! if they regard it as suspiciously pink, they would have to issue you with some sort of notice and send the sample off for testing at a laboratory. I guess they may issue you with an on-the-spot fine and you may have to pay it, or have the boat impounded - or possibly your travel documents? You are then in the situation of having to appeal against the fine and it all comes down to the results of the laboratory test. The documents I've seen do not explicitly set a lower limit of dye concentration, but they do state that at levels below 0.12mg/l the test becomes unreliable with too many false positive results - hence you should be in a good position to get the fine overturned.
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I seriously think you guys are on drugs!

Just over a year ago life as we know it seemed to be coming to an end with the introduction of NRMM virtually zero sulphur red diesel with in some instances around 3% FAME, unsafe, unsafe unsafe you were shouting. Marine fuel standard altered under pressure to eliminate FAME. Now you guys are are puttng the stuff in voluntarily!

Nothing has changed, French disagreed with our position before the end of the derogation. People happy to go chugging off to France without a care, even though technically we have been illegal since January 2009.

Take a look at http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=305782

I have spoken to friends in France and they no clue what the fuss is all about.

What the French DO hate is us Brits coming over with the lazerettle stuff with cans of red. Just do the right thing and top of with their undyed fuel as soon as you can and keep the reciept. By the way I suspect you are getting FAME in their fuel.
 
Latestarter1 said:
I seriously think you guys are on drugs!

...
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Well, I wasn't actually saying that they would fine us, just responding to a question about what the process would be if they started to behave like the Belgians. The new HMRC notice is an admission that they can fine us if they want to - we have to hope that they continue to be as laid back about it as they have been thus far.
 
agent leman said:
I have often wondered what would happen if the colour was, say, blue rather than red: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BLUE-DIES...cleParts_SM&hash=item3f14146865#ht_858wt_1185 Anyone know the french for twisted underwear?
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Ah, they have thought of that!

Council Directive 95/60/EC of 27 November 1995 on fiscal marking of gas oils and kerosene :

Article 4
Member States may add a national marker or colour in addition to the marker provided for in Article 1 (1).
No person shall add to the mineral oils concerned any marker or colour other than those provided for in Community law or in the national law of the Member State concerned.
 
maby said:
Ah, they have thought of that!

Council Directive 95/60/EC of 27 November 1995 on fiscal marking of gas oils and kerosene :

Article 4
Member States may add a national marker or colour in addition to the marker provided for in Article 1 (1).
No person shall add to the mineral oils concerned any marker or colour other than those provided for in Community law or in the national law of the Member State concerned.
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Doesn't the highlighted red text means UK could use some unique colour for a Marine "white" to allow for rebated domestics use?
 
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Stork_III said:
Doesn't the highlighted red text means UK could use some unique colour for a Marine "white" to allow for rebated domestics use?
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Certainly so, I was posting in response to a message that appeared to be proposing that we added some blue stuff bought off eBay to confuse the tests.

You would have to be careful about this term "rebated" - we'll just end up in the same position as we are now. You might get away with offereing a different composition fuel, separately marked at a different rate of duty to road fuel, but you certainly have to get away from the mind set that some of it is taxed for propulsion and some for heating. I think it's still not at all clear that it would get past the commission, but it would be worth a try.
 
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Kurrawong_Kid said:
To reduce the staining caused by the red dye to the acceptable taint is it better to use up almost all the red diesel and then refil my 30 gallon tank with white;or keep topping up with white diesel ( at 5 gallons a throw) as convenient from time to time until 30 gallons of white has been put in?. Or will both ultimately have the same result?
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We used up as much as we dared.
Filled with white.
Changed fuel filter.
And that seemed to be sufficient for the Douane when we were checked 2 years ago.
Been using white ever since.
 
Kurrawong_Kid said:
To reduce the staining caused by the red dye to the acceptable taint is it better to use up almost all the red diesel and then refil my 30 gallon tank with white;or keep topping up with white diesel ( at 5 gallons a throw) as convenient from time to time until 30 gallons of white has been put in?. Or will both ultimately have the same result?
Click to expand...

Well, at least this bit is clearly defined - you need to dilute 75:1 with white diesel to get below the threshold - so it really is not feasible to do it in even two steps with a 30 gallon tank - you would need to run it down to less than half a gallon - certainly running a serious risk of running out of fuel, probably sucking all sorts of gunge out to the bottom of the tank and into your engine and, probably, not even possible since the dip tube probably does not get close enough to the bottom of the tank. I think that the concensus from Belgium - where they have already done this - is that it takes at least three cycles of running it almost empty, then filling up almost completely to get there.
 
maby said:
Well, at least this bit is clearly defined - you need to dilute 75:1 with white diesel to get below the threshold - so it really is not feasible to do it in even two steps with a 30 gallon tank - you would need to run it down to less than half a gallon - certainly running a serious risk of running out of fuel, probably sucking all sorts of gunge out to the bottom of the tank and into your engine and, probably, not even possible since the dip tube probably does not get close enough to the bottom of the tank. I think that the concensus from Belgium - where they have already done this - is that it takes at least three cycles of running it almost empty, then filling up almost completely to get there.
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Aren't you ALWAYS drawing fuel from the bottom of the tank even if it's full otherwise you'd have a lot of unusable fuel in your tank.
 
ghostlymoron said:
Aren't you ALWAYS drawing fuel from the bottom of the tank even if it's full otherwise you'd have a lot of unusable fuel in your tank.
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If you were ALWAYS drawing fuel from the bottom of the tank I suspect you would have ground to a halt long ago, as many people are doubtless about to explain.
 
Stork_III said:
Doesn't the highlighted red text means UK could use some unique colour for a Marine "white" to allow for rebated domestics use?
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No. There are two laws affecting this issue. First one says that fuel for leisure boating must be charged at the same rate of duty as fuel for cars and lorries etc. Second law says that duty free fuel for use where it is allowed ( tractors, fishing boats, heating etc) must be died a colour - almost everyone choses red but I believe the Micks chose green.

In any case our diesel isnt rebated. We pay the full duty on the but we use for propulsion. The other 40% is a standard allowance for heating. And thats why we are messing up the system, using diesel with dye in it but having paid full duty on it.

If you want a more detailed and accurate description , have a look at this
 
Latestarter1 said:
I seriously think you guys are on drugs!

Just over a year ago life as we know it seemed to be coming to an end with the introduction of NRMM virtually zero sulphur red diesel with in some instances around 3% FAME, unsafe, unsafe unsafe you were shouting. Marine fuel standard altered under pressure to eliminate FAME. Now you guys are are puttng the stuff in voluntarily!

Nothing has changed, French disagreed with our position before the end of the derogation. People happy to go chugging off to France without a care, even though technically we have been illegal since January 2009.

Take a look at http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=305782

I have spoken to friends in France and they no clue what the fuss is all about.

What the French DO hate is us Brits coming over with the lazerettle stuff with cans of red. Just do the right thing and top of with their undyed fuel as soon as you can and keep the reciept. By the way I suspect you are getting FAME in their fuel.
Click to expand...

There were a number of folk at my marina last weekend decanting red diesel from their on board tanks and taking it away ( I know not where!). One of my very good friends is due back in the water very soon and is scheduled to take part in a race that goes to Belgium and he said he was just not prepared to risk getting boarded and fined. I think he is not alone.
Confusion still reigns on this subject still. Each organisation be it RYA, HMRC the government in general all seem to have a different interpretation. It is a cock up of substantial proportions that has left boaters riddled with uncertainty.

Those deciding to decant and "go white" before going "over there" are only being pragmatic
in not relying on the paper hanky protection offered by the confusing and often contrary interpretations of the regulations that are currently on offer. Just wait until the Sun gets on to the story, then we might see some action!

While decanting action is possible for many yachts with comparatively small fuel capacities, I think the mobo guys face a real problem
 
Diesel

Is it not possible to satisfy the EU and HMRC by adding a small second tank say 10L with a diverter valve. Use this when you see the customs boat heading for you, I am sure it may confuse them enough to give you the benefit of doubt. Return fuel could go into main tank?

Could be an added bonus if your main tank gets contaminated?

Can you be done if you are sailing and not using the fuel?

Yes just realised that you cant even carry it! doh..................
 
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