Prosecuted for having a Swiss Army Knife

[snowleopard]

Over the years we have heard countless stories of the Police using tricks to get a confession. 'You will be allowed to contact your worried family if you just sign here'. You can always change your confession later'. 'If you don't plead guilty you'll be found guilty and go to jail'. Or the case we read on here a day or two ago - 'Just step out of the taxi, you can always get another one'.

Sadly, far from getting a more just policing system, the present government has given them a whole new armoury of laws they can use to override the rights of the citizen.

'We are being managed, not represented' - Tony Benn

 

[shmoo]

Do not admit it is an offensive weapon

The police have ways of applying pressure. You are very privileged if you have never encountered this side of them.

When I was 16 or 17, many years ago in a universe far far away, I lent a motorcycle to a mate to "go round the block", the way you do. Trouble was I didn't check if he was insured or had a licence, or could even ride at all. He returned a few minutes later, pushing the bike accompanied by a police officer. To cut a long story short, the officer offered me either "aiding and abetting" no docs or, his preference, denying that my mate had my permission so I get off scot free and mate gets done for Twocking, which I being a charge involving dishonesty attracted more police brownie points. Honesty and integrity? He wouldn't have known it if it bit him.

 

[ianj99]

I don't know if we are getting the full story. Might well be that he has a bit of a form. .

I think this is often the case. For instance when a youth is stabbed we never hear anything about his 'past', the media always approach the story as if he is the innocent victim. Sometimes rough justice is the only way, just deserts etc..

 

[doug748]

I think this is often the case. For instance when a youth is stabbed we never hear anything about his 'past', the media always approach the story as if he is the innocent victim. Sometimes rough justice is the only way, just deserts etc..

I would love to think you might be right.

However this sorry business has the stink of bullying about it. Nobody about to spring to the aid of a middle class white bloke form Devon is there?

Easy option to think "Well they must have a reason" "No smoke without fire" "He put in a guilty plea - just shows"

On another tack, a Devon Police spokesman said there are "clear guidelines" on the issue. I have contacted the Western Morning News to ask what these guidelines are, and how Mr Knowles broke them. If you would like to know as well, this is a link to the editor:

http://www.thisiswesternmorningnews.co.uk/emaileditor.html

I shall also be asking the Devon and Cornwall Police the same question.

 

[Major Catastrophe]

I think this is often the case. For instance when a youth is stabbed we never hear anything about his 'past', the media always approach the story as if he is the innocent victim. Sometimes rough justice is the only way, just deserts etc..

I disagree. Media usually does well to dig up any dirt.

It is the parents who deny their 'darling's' darker side.

"He was a good boy".

 

[mcframe]

Over the years we have heard countless stories of the Police using tricks to get a confession. 'You will be allowed to contact your worried family if you just sign here'. You can always change your confession later'. 'If you don't plead guilty you'll be found guilty and go to jail'. Or the case we read on here a day or two ago - 'Just step out of the taxi, you can always get another one'.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc
(US-based & long, but interesting)

Of course, it's probably not smart to answer the cop that stops you in car and asks "Do you know how fast you were going, sir?" with "No idea - you're the tw@t with the radar gun" ;->

With children on board, I keep my sailing knife in my pocket, but have a diver's net-cutter http://www.divecourses.co.uk/acatalog/Beaver_Trigger_Line_Cutter.html clipped to the top of the sprayhood.

 

[saltwater_gypsy]

Do I believe all this stuff.....NO I DON'T.
The law is that you can carry a knife with a blade of less than 3inches in length which is capable of folding and is not disguised as something else... and you have a reason to carry it. Not difficult with such a multi-purpose knife
I have checked my Swiss Army knife and it easily complies.
Did this guy have one of the giant ones we used to see in shop windows????
Another urban myth I fear . Just because it is in the Western Morning News doesn't make it true!!!!!

 

[Major Catastrophe]

Did this guy have one of the giant ones we used to see in shop windows????
Another urban myth I fear . Just because it is in the Western Morning News doesn't make it true!!!!!

I assume that as he is holding the knife in the picture, it is clearly smaller than a 3inh blade.

 

[Babylon]

It depends on your 'intent' apparently.

One of my colleagues is a retired police inspector. I sometimes engage him with various scenarios likely to involve innocent people and the Law, at which he invariably switches straight back into rozzer mode - his normal incredibly polite demeanor and helpful manner vanishes, instead I'm confronted with intimidating 'road-block' body-language, where every reasonable answer I give to his questioning is decimated. After a minute or two of this uncomfortable dialogue, I put my hands up and we move on.

So, the question of whether a small folding penkife or any similar object (firearms are excluded here because they require an actual licence) is considered to be an offensive weapon depends on the intent of the person carrying it.

For example, I'd need to convincingly argue that the small Swiss-army penkife in my car is kept there only for peeling apples, opening bottles of soft-drinks, etc and not for any offensive or defensive purpose.

Or as to why I have a florescent Wichard folding sailing knife & shackle-key on a lanyard in my pocket in the middle of a seaside town, I'd need to convince the police that I had no malicious intent, but was simply on my way back from the Co-Op to my boat's tender where its purpose would be safety only.

That's the theory. I just hope I don't need to test it in practice!

 

[timbartlett]

Do I believe all this stuff.....NO I DON'T.
The law is that you can carry a knife with a blade of less than 3inches in length which is capable of folding and is not disguised as something else... and you have a reason to carry it. Not difficult with such a multi-purpose knife
I have checked my Swiss Army knife and it easily complies.
Did this guy have one of the giant ones we used to see in shop windows????
Another urban myth I fear . Just because it is in the Western Morning News doesn't make it true!!!!!

Actually, the law is that you are allowed to carry a folding knife with a blade of less than 3 inches which is not capable of being locked.
If the blade is capable of being locked, then it loses its automatic exemption, and you are only allowed to carry it if you have reason to do so.
And the fact that you had it in your car (or pocket) "just in case" or because you forgot to remove it isn't necessarily good enough reason.
I'm afraid we see an awful lot of overzealous police attacking soft targets.
I'm sure Mr Knowles used to believe that "the police are there to protect us" and that "if you are innocent you have nothing to fear". Now, he has joined the growing ranks of those who have found out that neither of those comfy myths are actually true.

 

[MoonlightShadow]

Have the Police ever shot a criminal?

We've heard of their "overzealous" success in shooting innocent people, but I was just wondering if they have ever shot a villain since they started totting their guns about.

 

[john_morris_uk]

On the face of it, righteous indignation seems the appropriate response, however there are one or two other questions that ought to be answered.

The report from the police says, "he was breathalysed and passed". Why was he stopped in the first place? What was his reaction to being stopped? How bolshie was he being?

In particular the police say that he 'refused to give up the knife'. The real question in my mind is what was he doing and saying to the police when they asked him to give them the knife? What was his reaction and what was he saying to them and what was his body language etc.

My experience is that if you are polite and co-operative you get a very different response to the one you get if you are aggressive and unco-operative. A friend who is a policeman freely admits that they vary their response according to the reaction of the person stopped.

Of course, the police might have got it totally wrong and the impression of the account as its read might be accurate, but its not necessarily the case.

In the end his mistake was to plead guilty - a good brief and it wouldn't have got to court.

 

[MoonlightShadow]

On the face of it, righteous indignation seems the appropriate response, however there are one or two other questions that ought to be answered.

The report from the police says, "he was breathalysed and passed". Why was he stopped in the first place? What was his reaction to being stopped? How bolshie was he being?

In particular the police say that he 'refused to give up the knife'. The real question in my mind is what was he doing and saying to the police when they asked him to give them the knife? What was his reaction and what was he saying to them and what was his body language etc.

My experience is that if you are polite and co-operative you get a very different response to the one you get if you are aggressive and unco-operative. A friend who is a policeman freely admits that they vary their response according to the reaction of the person stopped.

Of course, the police might have got it totally wrong and the impression of the account as its read might be accurate, but its not necessarily the case.

In the end his mistake was to plead guilty - a good brief and it wouldn't have got to court.

Got to admit, that what you are saying is true, but.. Is "reaction" illegal. Is being "Bolshie" illegal?

Surely the Police varying their actions according to the reaction of the person being stopped is not right and proper Law Enforcement. It's personal taste. Do I like this bloke or not? Shall I nick him because he has broken the law, or because I don't like him?

 

[john_morris_uk]

Is "reaction" illegal. Is being "Bolshie" illegal?

Surely the Police varying their actions according to the reaction of the person being stopped is not right and proper Law Enforcement. It's personal taste. Do I like this bloke or not? Shall I nick him because he has broken the law, or because I don't like him?

Go and do an experiment with a police officer - perhaps you'd like to report your findings?

Police officers have to make an assessment of someone they stop - of coures being bolshie isn't illegal, but you're a fool if you think that its going to help your cause.

 

[MoonlightShadow]

That's the problem. I agree with what you said, but what you said shouldn't be the case.

 

[cliffordpope]

The nub of the prosecution case is "intention". Attitude can be an indicator of intention.

 

[MoonlightShadow]

The nub of the prosecution case is "intention". Attitude can be an indicator of intention.

Are we suggesting he intended to use the knife against the Police?

 

[andymcp]

I don't know any more of the facts on this one than anyone else, but a couple of things spring to mind:

i) His previous form, or suspected form, is irrelevant. If he isn't obviously guilty of the crime he is being accused of, then it shouldn't be turned into guilt by coercion.

ii) If there is a responsibility on him not to react to spurious charges and suggestion by the police, then there should be an equal responsibility on the rozzers not to act like the sanctimonious idiots they frequently come across as. His possible attitude may come across as intent, but if the cops induce that attitude then they should be accountable for aggravating the situation.

Either way, the cops really don't help themselves with cases like this - a bit like the cop that charged someone with blowing their nose at the lights.

 

[ChiPete]

What you really MUST understand that the police are indeed no longer interested in upholding the law and protecting the citizenry - it's ALL about targets and ticking the boxes. They are an arm of the political machine tasked with controlling our (meaning law abiding people's) behaviour. They're not interested in the feral estates populated by the scum-of-the-earth as this would involve personal risk and responsibility. Pick the fruit from the easiest and lowest branch is the new police mantra.

Given the salaries on offer, the lack of the final salary pension scheme and the simple fact that they're compelled by legislation to accept just about any muppet who wants to apply, the 'service' is now being populated by the type of individual (for most, read 'thug') that was never accepted at school, doesn't have the gumption to understand or form relationships with others and sees the uniform as a device to permit them to force others to do their whim. A former aquaintance with 20 years service despaired of the quality of recruits now being produced by Ashford.

Case in point: I was dining with friends at the Royal Oak in Lavant on Saturday night. At about 2045, seven officers arrived in a Rozzer Bus; a sergeant and six constables. Now, for those of you that don't know the Royal Oak, it's a fabulous country gastro-pub, great food, excellent service, lovely ambience (if you're ever in the Chichester area, it's highly recommended) with the average age of the patrons that night of around 48, all seated and dining on the delicious fare. So, NOT a town centre JD Wetherspoons waiting to kick off at chucking out time!

Two male constables dived into the Gents, two females did the same in the Ladies, two stood 'guard' over the dining room (nice) whilst Sarge made a nuisance of himself with the manager. It transpires that this was a random drugs raid! It's a Saturday night, I could name a dozen places in Bognor that really could do with a police van outside on Saturday nifght yet here they are ticking the boxes at the quietest place in the County - Muppets.

Form-fillers and box-tickers, that's all they are now. I was brought up to have the utmost respect for the Police and was duly afraid and highly respectful when I did come into contact with them as a growing lad. No more. I'll cross to the other side of the street to avoid them and have lost any regard for the uniform and the idiots that wear it.

 

[fireball]

What you really MUST understand that the police are indeed no longer interested in upholding the law and protecting the citizenry - it's ALL about targets and ticking the boxes. They are an arm of the political machine tasked with controlling our (meaning law abiding people's) behaviour. They're not interested in the feral estates populated by the scum-of-the-earth as this would involve personal risk and responsibility. Pick the fruit from the easiest and lowest branch is the new police mantra.

Given the salaries on offer, the lack of the final salary pension scheme and the simple fact that they're compelled by legislation to accept just about any muppet who wants to apply, the 'service' is now being populated by the type of individual (for most, read 'thug') that was never accepted at school, doesn't have the gumption to understand or form relationships with others and sees the uniform as a device to permit them to force others to do their whim. A former aquaintance with 20 years service despaired of the quality of recruits now being produced by Ashford.

Case in point: I was dining with friends at the Royal Oak in Lavant on Saturday night. At about 2045, seven officers arrived in a Rozzer Bus; a sergeant and six constables. Now, for those of you that don't know the Royal Oak, it's a fabulous country gastro-pub, great food, excellent service, lovely ambience (if you're ever in the Chichester area, it's highly recommended) with the average age of the patrons that night of around 48, all seated and dining on the delicious fare. So, NOT a town centre JD Wetherspoons waiting to kick off at chucking out time!

Two male constables dived into the Gents, two females did the same in the Ladies, two stood 'guard' over the dining room (nice) whilst Sarge made a nuisance of himself with the manager. It transpires that this was a random drugs raid! It's a Saturday night, I could name a dozen places in Bognor that really could do with a police van outside on Saturday nifght yet here they are ticking the boxes at the quietest place in the County - Muppets.

Form-fillers and box-tickers, that's all they are now. I was brought up to have the utmost respect for the Police and was duly afraid and highly respectful when I did come into contact with them as a growing lad. No more. I'll cross to the other side of the street to avoid them and have lost any regard for the uniform and the idiots that wear it.

Blimey - drugs raid at the Royal Oak ?! Flippin eck ... I wonder if they went and did the Fish House at Chilgrove afterwards ....
Do they not understand that the clientèle of the Royal Oak is unlikely to tolerate drugs trade in their pub? And even if they did - it wouldn't be in the pub ...
Not saying the police shouldn't 'check' but surely it's easier to send in a plain clothes to do a check then call in the heavies if needed ... but what have they done - they've got the backs up of the very people that pay their salaries and would normally co-operate.
Idiots in uniform ... ?? certainly seems that way ...