Pros and Cons of cutter rigged ketches

Sgeir

Sgeir

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Not in the market for one at the moment, but I was impressed by Bejasus' decision to buy a Hardin 45 Voyager - they look like great sea boats, and very comfortable to boot (lovely looking one here for sale).

I can see that in the Pro department, a cutter rigged ketch allows greater variation of sail area, and may be easier to reduce to a very small, but effective, sail area in bad conditions.

But, leaving aside the cost of additional sails and rigging, what are the downsides? Do they point as well well as a sloop rigged boat? Does the mizzen mast "get in the way"? Etc, etc...
 
We where shown around an AMEL this week by a rep. (way, way outside my budget - but he wanted to tell us and I was interested to listen

It’s a ketch and they have some really intriguing ideas about why they have designed the boats the way they have.

They say that 90% of their boats are sailed by cruising couples on their own and it’s the female who dictates the ultimate buying decision. Her decision is based upon safety. Angle of heel is a big feature for them (they have all sorts of ways of reducing it).
Ketch = lower mast height for same or more sail area therefore considerably less heel.
 
The cutter rig will never be quite as close-winded as a sloop but not a problem for long-distance work. The biggest problem is supporting th inner forestay. It either needs runners or swept-back spreaders, neither of which are good news.

As for the mizzen, some swear by them, most swear at them. I've heard it said no-one ever buys a second ketch - not entirely true but a lot of people, me included, have tried them and don't like them. To windward the main backwinds the mizzen so it's usually handed leaving you with an undercanvassed cutter. Downwind the mizzen tends to blanket the main and can take charge in a gust, causing a broach. On a reach they are good but the famous mizzen staysail argument doesn't hold water - during an atlantic crossing we dug out the mizzen staysail once but by the time we got the bag on deck conditions had changed so down it went again. Devotees of the rig point out that you can drop the main and sail under mizzen and headsail but in the time taken to stow the main you could have reefed a cutter and dropped the yankee so no great advantage there.
 
Pros:
Mizzen mast is a great place to put the Radar!
Mizzen could be handy if the main comes down (providing there is no triatic stay)
Can be good off the wind.
Can put up a Mizzen Staysail (if wind direction is right)
Mizzen boom often makes a useful crane.
They look great in full flight (important!)

Cons:
Lots of sails, string, rigging to maintain/replace.
More windage.
Mizzen usually in dirty air when hard on the wind (can sail as a sloop though)
Can mess up a wind vane installation (Mizzen sail overhangs)
More noise in the aft cabin (halyards, whistling etc).
Mizzen usually means running backstays.
Cutter often means running backstays
(Running is the bit the crew does, moving them all around...)

There is probably more....
 
thanks for the PM Donald. Don't be fooled by the looks on this one. Whilst it is the only one with the 4 cabin layout currently left on the market. It is too expensive, it needs quite a bit spent on it and the owner is totally unrealistic.
I shall explain.
We went to see this boat which is in Levkada and whilst the owner wasn't there we went out with his partner and the original owner of the boat, Nick, a greek who imported the boat from Taiwan when new. We had an afternoon out, but in typical Ionian fashion, it blew a hooly on the morning and nothing in the afternoon, so could only motor.
The boat has no nav instruments to talk of and little else electronically.
No record of engine maintenance.
Poor teak, and a poor attempt at replacing some with a teak(ish) plank.
At least one hatch that leaked.
A cracked forward window in the saloon.
Old cooker(negotiable I believe).
Some repair work to the teak flooring required.
No generator.
No A/c.
No rigging details. It didn't look that great.
No sail details.
Not sure about holding tank.
Painted wooden masts, unable to determine condition.
Ropey(sic) looking sheets & halyards.
No VAT certification, although probably exempt. In itself a nightmare to sort out in Greece.
Has been privately chartered most of her life.(Scorpios)
Spreaders on mainmast looked iffy.

He wanted €110,000 at the time but farted around. I offered him €90,000 as a start, but also said he could keep the boat until the end of his charter season(this was in June), subject to a second haul out to ensure the boat was still in the same condition.

He wouldn't accept anything I said about the boat and wouldn't budge on the price, even after being advised by his own broker that it was a fair deal.

It got to the point that I didn't believe he would even accept what a surveyor would say. So I pulled out there and then. A bit miffed as I had had to purchase business class tickets to Athens at short notice, a hire car to/from Athens and hotel accomodation both there and in Levkada, although we did enjoy the island.

Now contrast that with what I got for $135,000 in the US.

Sails and rigging 2004 ish.
24 mile Furuno Radar..........well, see for your self here.

oh, and a great exchange rate of $1.8850/£(including all fees) which saved me about another $10k
 
Thanks all of you, for your sound advice and different perspectives. We're perfectly pleased with our present boat for the moment, which, though fairly spartan, is a good sea boat and ideal for longish cruises in Britain and Ireland.

But we've got this feeling that, maybe in a couple of years time, we could be going for a bigger boat (say, around 38/42 ft) for extended cruising. Basic requirements are good sea-keeping, reasonable space and comfort, decent headroom, double berth, sea berths etc. The Hardin was at the outer end of the scale. And George, [envy]what a beautiful one you've got[/envy].

Must say, we quite like the look of some of the US/Taiwan boats. Also, Corbins, like this one. Must stop this dreaming.....
 
btw, the Hardin in Greece is now laid up for the winter in Levkas. I believe that the price has come down to €105,000. Still a long way off. I don't think they really want to sell it.

That Corbin looks nice and well finished apart from the velour upholstery. /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
I think it would probably sail better than the Hardin too.
 
Hand no 2, a week later, now absolutely super, have just been doing some climbing in the garage with it (nothing too strenuous) lot lot better than the first!
 
Advice from Cutter and Jimi appreciated

Pleased it worked out ok. You've got me wondering if I should get my hooked right pinkie straightened, even at my advanced years.

My climbing days are over, but still like to play 'music', and it seems to be getting worse - can manage bottom C on the tenor sax OK, and with difficulty on the soprano. But, for the first time in years, tried out my old clarinet earlier this evening - couldnae get the bottom F, G# etc. Bloody bent finger won't stretch that far.

I was so looking forward to doing a duet with TCM on the 2007 Chentleman's Cruise. I know you were too Jim.
 
First time sailing on a ketch - four months this year - spent most of the time motor sailing (except when the engine died) - and I would say - didn't point at all well; tacking was almost going from side to side, unless the wind was just right and just the right force; I got well and truly soaked from the mizzen sail when hand steering, unless I remembered to duck and dive (when it was raining, of course!). Jib and jigger option (jib and mizzen) was OK + engine, or it took forever to get anywhere. Hull shape was excellent for heavy weather - 70s boat - heavy construction, long keel, cutaway forefoot - felt safe in all weather/all seas.

I'd rather have a r/r genny, and main and a stakpak.

S x
 
Hmm, the ketch has its supporters, but the apparent pointing difficulties (of at least some) must be a bit of a pain, especially as we're not too keen on motoring long distances. I'm with you on hull shape, and my preference is for the longer keel, and the older heavier construction, as we have at present.

Snowleopard mentioned some cutter drawbacks. Anyone else have any views?
 
after much chatting abt this verra subject on a Nic 38 sloop rigged ketch whilst going rather well, i thocht, to windward, we concluded that you'd never get the tension in a forestay on a cutter so the sail shape is somewhat banana'd and wouldn't pull as well

the NIC sailing instructions (boat is 1978) go something like this: up to F4 - all sail; F5 change down headsail; F7 off with main; F8 storm jib; F10 off with jib ... the mizzen stays up. The book actually says something like "we at Nicholsons have tested .. in all weathers and etc etc". Wonder if that happens these days?
 
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