Proper depth !

I don't really understand what you mean about not assessing the errors separately. Can you describe the thoughts you might have while navigating in a more concrete way?

I might look at a river entrance and think "this seems like the sort of place that will shift around after a storm, and I bet it doesn't get surveyed very often. I'll add a bigger than usual safety margin, come in slower and keep a close eye on the sounder,

...

I think most of the problem already exists though, with old and sparse surveys being converted into crisp certainty with a little animated boat driving across it. I believe inaccuracies in plotter charting (and charts generally) are much greater than errors in the tidal predictions.

I'll take those two together. I'm not even talking about 'looking at a chart while navigating'. When pre-planning, I want to look over a chart in detail because I used to make geological maps for a living (and the government), so I understand the way in which representations of the earth, based on isolated data, are put together. Geological maps are in fact way more complex that hydrographic ones, but the way in which the guy drawing the linework works is the same (even when partly computer aided)- the final interpretation he gives you tells you something about his confidence. How have the contour lines been drawn- sweeping smooth lines or complex wiggles? What's the density of soundings, how much data is he interpolating through (or, how much of it is he presenting to you)? What's the variation in the values- might this be a dipping planar surface or something more like a lunar topography with only six soundings across it? Might a string of isolated deep water blobs across a drying grounds actually be representations of connected channels below the resolution of the sounding spacing? (this is actually not uncommon for older surveys). What's the cartographer's confidence- how certain is he that his final presented linework is a probable representation of the ground versus one of two or three possible interpretations, or one of a dozen, or one of a hundred? What confidence should I take from it, and how high should I expect the potential for error to be? How will I use all of this to plan my route? How good is this chart I'm using?

This is what I mean by wanting to assess the errors in the cartography seperately from the depth being adjusted for height of tide. It is the first step in proper navigation; it's also a process you'll re-iterate underway if you know how to read a chart in this way rather than just reading a depth off it and taking that as gospel. If you are not going through this step then you are not getting the most out of your charts (or yourself as navigator). Using charts in the way you describe is several steps down the path of navigating a passage for me.

This brings me to the next point which is that if you are reading any chart with this sort of an eye, then you are going a LONG way down the road to being sure you will not fall foul of the modern problem of 'old and sparse surveys being converted into crisp certainty'. Whether raster or vector (excl Navionics sonar for the moment) or paper, the shape of contours, style of linework, density of soundings won't change- the cartographer is telling you what the uncertainty is. You don't have to 'believe' stuff about chart inaccuracies, you can make an estimate for yourself.

I agree that tidal uncertainties are less- although I am less familiar with this type of modelling- but they are still not perfect models. There are parts of the Bristol Channel where flows are way outside anything you'll get in the tidal atlas. GRIB data like MyOcean does better, but my point is that the uncertainties in the tidal model, if important to the navigator, will be more difficult to assess if you have to back out the depth from CD in the first place.

I don't really understand why this would be the case. All the contours would still be there. If anything, the artificial distinction between dark blue and green is what distorts the overview in a place with large tides like the Channel Islands, because most of the time most of it is navigable, and some of the green is actually never exposed because the tide doesn't get very close to datum even at low springs.

Again you are talking about navigating in one particular place and/or by staring at a chartplotter as you go. If you take a large-scale overview of a long coastal passage, the height of tide will differ along the coast at any given point in time. Say, therefore, that your destination has more tide than you do at the arbitrary time, two days before, when you do your passage planning. The navigator will see the sandbanks lying offshore from his harbour of departure but all will be blue in the harbour of arrival, and he'll either have to work hard to check for those sandbanks, or go get a chart drawn to datum in any case in order to assess them, or when he arives tired just after dark, be happy to hit them and find out about them at that point. I can't see this is a good idea.

That's the idea. Chart datum is a necessary abstraction for working with static charts, but it doesn't actually exist in the real world.
You and I find it a completely natural concept because we've worked with it for decades, but if you start with a clean sheet of paper and design for someone with no prior knowledge, why would they care about it?

Because you are suggesting replacing CD with a datum of the sea surface, which is no datum at all because it moves up and down, not to mention and at different speeds in different places. The whole point of a datum is that it allows you to compare like for like at any scale, as I point out above- not just at a given local point of interest at a time relevant to what you're doing there right now. That's why people starting to navigate now should (and do) care about it. Yes it's necessary for 'static' charts but becuase tide height variations are more closely distributed than the origin and destinations of coastal passages, but you need a datum even for 'dynamic' (?- electronic) charts at small (large area) scales. Electronic or not, what you are suggesting is still a confusing datum shift over large distances: just like throwing away the necessary abstraction for paper charts and drawing a series across the south coast of the UK and using CD, HAT, and OD successively as you go then expecting someone to formulate a plan from Falmouth to Dover with it.

It's the plotter manufacturers who would have to implement it, not the chart suppliers. And I'm mildly surprised if they don't already offer it as an option.

For the reasons above, I'm not. Perhaps if someone made a plotter which only ever displayed a heads up rolling road with 1.5Nm of cartography either side of the boat, it might be a selling point. But as most manufacturers know that safe navigation is done in context, I doubt they are up for it.

Moore's Law has already solved that one :). Modern plotters are essentially Linux PCs in a waterproof box, the performance increase over, say, a Raymarine C80 from 10+ years ago must be enormous.

I should hope so but my NSS Simrad (admittedly a coupe of years old) doesn't fill me with confidence :)
 
Using current method of using chart datum (takes ? 30s if done properly each time and involves guess work)
1) look at the chart depth
2) look up current time
3) look up tide timetable and find correct entry for place and time
4) note the HW and LW times that straddle current time
5) mentally note where current time is relative to HW and LW times
6) note HW and LW tide heights
7) use (5) and (6) and mental visualization of tide curves to determine current tide height
8) add (1) and (7) together

Or:

1) Look at value on depth sounder (which is calibrated to waterline), displayed on chartplotter
2) Look at little height of tide icon and value for nearest port- displayed on chartplotter
3) Look at depth adjacent to flashy boaty thing- on chartplotter

Without touching anything or going below or getting books out or looking anything up (or, indeed, withdrawing one's gaze from chartplotter)- do a sum, in own head

Think I'm with you, seems a bit tough. It would be better if the plotter did just that little bit more for me :D
 
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Navionics on the iPad/iPhone/Android (other platforms are available) does a similar thing to one of your points.

You can select the day, slide across the tidal times and see the chart depths change - most useful as an aide memoir and emergency check. (That's options 2/3 in the OP)
I think these days that package counts as a chart plotter of sorts.

That's interesting, didn't know that. It only works at relatively high zoom for me though. Also the green drying areas remain represented as such whether dry or not. ie my main concerns (misrepresentation across large areas and representing navigable water on drying banks shallower than charted) aren't an issue with that. However the result is that it's just showing you how much water you do or don't have in what is relatively safe water already.

If that's what OP is wanting it's fine by me, I thought we might be talking about a more comprehensive product.
 
All this system would do is tell people that their charts and tidal data have limited accuracy.
The tidal height info is only accurate for where it is gathered.
And even there, predictions can be 0.5m out without any obvious big weather.
Half a mile away, it can be another 0.5m out.

Then soundings are only at intervals, and the sea bottom is not flat and has all sorts of objects on it. And a lot of it moves day by day.

So if you want a plotter to roughly add on a height of tide to charted soundings, give or take a metre or so, fine.
But don't expect it to agree at all closely with your echo sounder.
 
Again you are talking about navigating in one particular place and/or by staring at a chartplotter as you go.

I think this is the disconnect between our positions - "staring at the chartplotter as I go" is how I use a plotter :). I don't use it for a wide overview or for pre-planning, because the screen is too small, panning around is fiddly, and too much detail is hidden at useful zoom levels. For pre-planning (whether formally or just to get an idea of an area before I go there) I always use a paper chart - as far as I can remember, I have literally never switched on the plotter when not under way in order to look at somewhere I'm planning to go. Under way, in all but the most familiar waters, I like to have the current chart on the table for an overview too, and because on a longer passage it will highlight isolated dangers that the plotter doesn't (see Vestas Wind).

Realising that you're talking about planning rather than instantaneous pilotage, a lot more of what you say makes sense to me. Although I still think it would sometimes be useful to be able to call up a depth-adjusted view of your destination around the expected time, to highlight where the viable channels will be (I'm thinking of St Malo, which looks intimidating on the chart until you realise that most of it is way below your keel most of the time). And the crucial point is that this would be an optional mode, used when it makes sense and not when it doesn't. That's why I highlighted the risk of mixing up the two modes, and suggested they be displayed in different colours so that it was clear which was in use at any given time. So plan in "traditional chart" mode, and do rolling road pilotage in "realtime" mode. Or do everything in traditional chart mode if you prefer - nobody is suggesting that the experienced navigator would be forced to use the new mode.

Pete
 
Pete- we agree I think. Like yourself I start out with paper and I guess most of my objections come because I now have a PC below with a big (ish) screen so do quite a lot of small scale planning digitally as well. In any case having seen the Navionics feature Sitesurfer mentioned, I think my objections were more theoretical than practical :)
 
I'm surprised that more people don't know this exists, I kind of assumed that all Chart Plotters did it (go with me - as far as I am concerned what I have IS a chart plotter).

Being able to have instant depth* in real time is very useful along with tidal streams.

*As far as the calculations go from CD tp Tidal Data stored in the software and not allowing for pressure and atmospheric conditions, geological sub strata or sandbanks shifting... (did I cover everything?)
 
I think your argument is an a prior one against using charts of any kind, paper or electronic, which I'm afraid I disagree with !

I think we may be a little at crossed wires here.

Are you talking about replacing your depth sounder with a plotter? This can't work well as the seabed changes over time in some critical area's.

Or are you meaning replacing spot depths with real time adjusted depths.

This sounds great in theory but tides are only calculated at specific points (ports mainly).

An interpolation would be at best a bit of a lash up would it not?


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Or are you meaning replacing spot depths with real time adjusted depths.
This sounds great in theory but tides are only calculated at specific points (ports mainly).

Excuse me for being dim but isn't that how you calculate via a paper chart? You get the tide height of the nearest known place (be that port or secondary) and add/subtract from the CD figure on the chart.
I fail to see how doing it electronically changes that particular aspect.
 
Excuse me for being dim but isn't that how you calculate via a paper chart? You get the tide height of the nearest known place (be that port or secondary) and add/subtract from the CD figure on the chart.
I fail to see how doing it electronically changes that particular aspect.

I think the point is that in looking up a secondary port 20 miles away and transferring its height of tide to the place you are sailing (whether via an almanac or just by looking at the port data on a plotter), you'd have to be fairly unobservant not to realise that you're making an approximation.

If the plotter did it for you (by means of the chart contours) it won't be obvious how much of an approximation the depth presented is- and there is a risk that the unobservant won't realise it's a approximation at all.*

It's not the process that changes, it's the end-user's perception of how much to rely on the result of that process, when making a navigation decision.

*not to mention that, unless you want sudden and artificial jumps in the depth data along arbitrary lines defined by distance from a given port, I think the plotter will have to triangulate at all times between all standard and secondary ports; ie it will always be having to grid a surface for the sea and you will have to have a plotter the size of a workstation. Either that or you'll have to keep downloading pre-computed GRIB surfaces to it.
 
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I think the point is that in looking up a secondary port 20 miles away and transferring its height of tide to the place you are sailing, you'd have to be fairly unobservant not to realise that you're making an approximation.

If the plotter did it for you it won't be obvious how much of an approximation the depth presented is- and there is a risk that the unobservant won't realise it's a approximation at all.

It's not the process that changes, it's the end-user's perception of how much to rely on the result of that process, when making a navigation decision.

Thank you, so the same process applies - the only difference being that its done for you in seconds.
Insofar as the skipper/person looking at the plotter is concerned that's a completely different matter entirely - I think its best not to use it to demonstrate why its a bad idea. After all that might suggest that the only people who are observant are those who have a chart table and dividers on tap.
 
Thank you, so the same process applies - the only difference being that its done for you in seconds.

I put an edit in about the speed of the process... yes, seconds as long as you have a very powerful computer in the plotter. I do those sort of calculations to generate geological surfaces all the time- it needs humungous and humungously expensive workstations.

Insofar as the skipper/person looking at the plotter is concerned that's a completely different matter entirely - I think its best not to use it to demonstrate why its a bad idea. After all that might suggest that the only people who are observant are those who have a chart table and dividers on tap.

I wasn't suggesting it's fundamentally a bad idea, and certainly not suggesting that observant nav is tied to traditional nav in some way. Just to be clear :)
 
it is almost instantaneous on the iPad iPhone and tesco hudl.
I have no experience of clunky chart plotters but as far as I am concerned what I have does exactly the same.
 
So, to compare the steps needed to know the depth at any place on the chart

Using current method of using chart datum (takes ? 30s if done properly each time and involves guess work)
1) look at the chart depth
2) look up current time
3) look up tide timetable and find correct entry for place and time
4) note the HW and LW times that straddle current time
5) mentally note where current time is relative to HW and LW times
6) note HW and LW tide heights
7) use (5) and (6) and mental visualization of tide curves to determine current tide height
8) add (1) and (7) together

Does one not also factor in wave height and frequency? ;)
 
I put an edit in about the speed of the process... yes, seconds as long as you have a very powerful computer in the plotter. I do those sort of calculations to generate geological surfaces all the time- it needs humungous and humungously expensive workstations.)

If your calculations are slow on modern hardware then you must be doing them to a very high degree of precision. Which makes sense if you're generating geological maps, but for tidal data which is inherently quite imprecise, you could use a very low-resolution model and do it practically instantaneously. Have "pixels" a kilometer wide if you like - the sea doesn't slope perceptibly across such a distance.

Pete
 
If your calculations are slow on modern hardware then you must be doing them to a very high degree of precision. Which makes sense if you're generating geological maps, but for tidal data which is inherently quite imprecise, you could use a very low-resolution model and do it practically instantaneously. Have "pixels" a kilometer wide if you like - the sea doesn't slope perceptibly across such a distance.

Pete

Well yes, I'm thinking actually of things which are recalculating a high density data point grid (seismic data). (I gave up the mapping a few years ago and now work as an oil industry geologist, whenever anyone wants to buy oil, that is).

As with anything the data density is about the size of the model as much as sampling frequency. You're right that it doesn't make a huge difference say across the UK, but a europe-wide model would be a different beast. The point I was trying to make perhaps not too well is that all this will come at an extra processing and probably physical/hardware cost.
 
it is almost instantaneous on the iPad iPhone and tesco hudl.
I have no experience of clunky chart plotters but as far as I am concerned what I have does exactly the same.

They're not making a gridded calculation, they (or the navionics app) is just adding height of tide to CD. If you zoom out to the point that the app would have to be a bit more clever the carto resolution drops to the base map and it won't do a 'dynamic depth' presentation anyway (at least on my iphone).
 
I think your requirement for data is different to mine, and I respect that. I'm very much the RYA trained school of thought rather than a technical exercise in exactitude (nothing wrong with that at all I hasten to add) so for me - near enough is good enough and everything after that is done with an eye on the depth sounder and Mk1 eyeball.

But then again - maybe after 30 years at sea (if I make it that far) I'll be a grizzled sea dog who thinks that the old hat HUD technology on the carbon fibre boats that the youngsters are driving by remote control via immersive 3D goggles with solid wing sails is just plain wrong. :)
 
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