Prof of VAT status

and how many recent cases have there been where the French have demanded VAT be paid- and successfully charged it? Because otherwise, this is merely armchair supposition
 
Re: Proof of VAT status

judging by the outcome discussions between f RYA and Customs, Customs dont think there is a problem....
How many cases can ANYONE actually cite?
I can see that if you move a boat from Croatia to UK, the tax office would like to know tax is paid, or is about to be paid. But unless you sail it and smuggle it in, isnt that all done in the normal course of transportatio and dock paperwork?
In other words, now DO you get a non VAT paid boat (not discussing reclaimed VAT , here)
 
I've never been asked for proof of VAT status in the UK but, some years ago, I was once specifically asked to prove that VAT was paid on my (UK registered) boat when in a Dutch marina. We were on a MBM cruise and a number of boats on the cruise were boarded by Dutch customs at the crack of dawn. Then we were boarded and asked to provide 'ships documents' once in Frioul (near Marseille) about 3yrs ago. They did'nt specifically request to see proof of VAT status but they certainly looked at the invoices I had
IMHO, if you do not have proof of VAT status or an explanation of why VAT is'nt due (eg CI resident) then potentially you are at risk of having your boat impounded in whichever port you are inspected until VAT is paid. It's a low risk but not one I'm willing to take
 
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But show me a law that says that mike?

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Since when did HMRC rely on laws before taking action? You are both right, but in practice I'm sure HMRC wouldn't hesitate.
 
I can't, not without considerable research, but I really don't fancy arguing a point of law with some foreign customs official. I understand your point in that you're not required to prove VAT status of other personal goods and equipment like cars, caravans etc when living in or moving about the EU but boats are a lot bigger and more obvious targets and customs officials know that owners do sometimes try to avoid paying VAT on them
 
I have been boarded at sea by French customs too (near Cannes) and had all my ship's papers examined in much detail. My boat isn't VAT paid and that was clear from the papers. But they were fine about it cos it is legally not VAT paid and sent me off saying (and I quote) "you paperwork is very good monsieur" and wishing me a nice day.
 
What would have happened if it was not 'clear from the papers' that your boat was legally not VAT paid? All I'm saying is that you may have to prove VAT status which does'nt necessarily mean that you have to prove that VAT has been paid. I don't know how you do it (but I'd like to!) but, for example, Channel Islands residents can take their boats to France without having to prove that VAT has been paid but they have to prove that they are CI residents and therefore exempt from VAT
 
we have a few cases on being boarded by officials, but does anyone have any cases of what happens when they are not happy? Inconvenience is one thing- and that may be reason enough- but beyond that? Impounded? Had to pay the VAT? Anything?
 
We're not disagreeing then. All I'm saying is that as a matter of law C is not liable for VAT on the A-B transaction, and it's worthwhile the forum knowing that, cos it is frequently bandied about on here that C is liable, as if that were the law.

Now as a separate matter if Customs boarded a boat owned by C and didn't like the paperwork it might be very inconvenient, though ultimatley the law shoudl prevail and Mr C should be ok once he has explained the A-B side to the hiostory. But I agree it could be inconvenient and might incvolve impounding, legal fees, etc in an extreme case. The risk of this happening is small but it is a good reason to have god VAT papers, I agree with you.

I just think that the forum should be clear on the facts: Mr C is better off having good VAT papers (and should potentially not buy the boat or chip the price) becuase of risk of this inconvenience, not because he is as a matter of law liable to VAT on an earlier A-B transaction.
 
aha.. now that is perhaps the most interesting post on VAT I have read after how ever many years on this forum.
Risk of Inconvenience...now we are getting to some facts. /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif
 
So here's an interesting one. The original sales invoice from Princess for my boat shows the purchaser as an individual, and VAT being charged. However he then sold it to me ex-VAT for delivery in Jersey, as that suited my particular circumstances. His bill of sale to me simply stated a price, and did not mention whether VAT was or was not included.

It seems to me that at that stage I had a chain of documentation showing that VAT had been paid on my boat that would stand up to any casual investigation (by a broker or even a customs spot check), yet I knew that it had not.

Can an individual be VAT registered, or is there some other explanation? Either way, I don't think there is any way you can be sure that VAT has been paid on a boat you're buying, unless you pay the VAT yourself.
 
Hougn,

How was the individual able to reclaim the VAT to sell it to you without the VAT? Once an individual has paid VAT, they cannot then reclaim it - it is effectively lost the moment that happens.

Its the same with commercial vehicles, only VAT registered companies can claim the VAT back. Once a non-VAT reg co or private bloke buys the truck, subsequent companies VAT reg or not cannot claim any VAT back.
 
I have another question. If I take a demonstrator to France (its in the EU and I can sell over there if I wish) I don;t have any proof of VAT being paid because it hasn't been. The law which allows me to do that is EU wide, but if the rumours are to be beleived johnny frenchman can board my boat, demand to see a VAT receipt and impound the thing if I dont have it?

Seems a bit unlikely to me.

I go back to my previous question about cars, trucks, caravans and aircraft. All high value and easily movable but I have never been asked by the frogs if I have paid the VAT on my RangeRover /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
 
No, you're putting words into my mouth. I said that I understand your point but I do not agree with you and I think C is legally liable for the VAT if he's unable to provide proof of the VAT status of the boat, just that C might be able to recover his loss from A or B under certain circumstances
I think the legal principle here is one of liens attaching to the goods not the seller. If you buy any item eg boat, car, caravan or whatever, if there are any outstanding liens on that item, then it is your responsibility to discharge those liens, not the previous owners. Unpaid VAT is a lien IMHO
 
Confused Jez. Wouldn't you have a VAT reciept from W'line when you bought the demonstartor? Ok you will have recovered that VAT immediately on your own VAT return, but you'll still have a VAT receipt for the boat wont you? That will be enough for the French. Sorry if I'm not understanding your facts here...

Of course if you are selling the boat to a customer actually in France and they judge you have a French operation (which means a regular place of business from which you make sales in France, or a non-independent agent in France) then they are entitled to Fr VAT on your turnover anyway, but I assume that's not the case.
 
houghn, irrespective of whether your boat is now VAT paid or not, you have an invoice that shows that VAT was paid on it at some time in the past and that is all you need to show VAT paid status
All anyone needs is an invoice showing that VAT has been charged at some stage in the life of the boat. I guess it would be even safer if the invoice was stamped with a receipt. Whether or not the VAT was claimed back at some time after the invoice date is immaterial
 
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