Problem with masthead tri / anchor LED lights

aussi

aussi

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Shropshire, boat in Conwy
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Hi All,

I was wondering whether anyone has any suggestions for a problem I'm having. I have one of these Seatec control panels on my boat:

http://www.svb24.com/index.php?sid=77ff3e25ab8e69448ec98d951e14bf9a&cl=details&cnid=13081&anid=306

I've recently had a new Hella masthead tri / anchor LED combo light installed:

http://www.hellamarine.com/?a=3&t=3&View=FullStory&productID=792&pcid=191

and stupidly assumed that the chap who installed it would actually check whether it worked with the control panel after installation. However, neither the anchor nor the tricolour light work from the control panel, but both lights work when connected directly to a 12v battery supply. I've tried re-wiring in every possible combination from the foot of the mast but nothing works via the panel.

When I bought the light, the SVB page (or their catalogue) didn't mention that it wouldn't work with LEDs, but I notice that it does now. However, my other deck-level LED lights do work, though they are reported as having blown.

I was wondering whether anyone had any clever solutions they might suggest. One further thing to mention - the wiring to the mast has just 3 wires - a shared neutral for both anchor and tri.

Cheers,
Austin.
 
multihullsailor6 said:
When converting to LED lights please be aware that the plus and minus cables to the battery connection need to be changed around, then the lights should work fine.
Click to expand...
Why?
He says the other LED lights work !

If he reverses the positive and negative connections to the battery I would then expect those that do now work to stop working!
 
Rigger Mortice said:
Are the lights polarity dependent?
Click to expand...

Yes it says that in the installation instructions.
The black wire is the common negative, the red wire is the positive connection to the tricolour and the blue wire the positive connection to the anchor light.
 
Thanks for all the quick replies guys. I can confirm that the lights are polarity dependant as the deck level lights had to be wired with specific polarity. However, for the masthead lights I've tried all combinations of polarity and none work. This was a complete pain as the boat is on a swinging mooring and I had to get in the dinghy each time to see the top of the mast!

I was thinking that it might be something to do with the electronic blown bulb detection but am quite confused that the deck level lights would work.

I've tried contacting SVB about this a couple of times but they haven't replied (except to add 'LED not supported' to their site - hmmm, helpful!

Cheers,
Austin.
 
aussi said:
Thanks for all the quick replies guys. I can confirm that the lights are polarity dependant as the deck level lights had to be wired with specific polarity. However, for the masthead lights I've tried all combinations of polarity and none work. This was a complete pain as the boat is on a swinging mooring and I had to get in the dinghy each time to see the top of the mast!

I was thinking that it might be something to do with the electronic blown bulb detection but am quite confused that the deck level lights would work.

I've tried contacting SVB about this a couple of times but they haven't replied (except to add 'LED not supported' to their site - hmmm, helpful!

Cheers,
Austin.
Click to expand...


I'd suspect that the "bulb blown" detection system is looking for the current levels normally associated with filament bulbs. The current taken by LEDs is so small by comparison that it sees them as blown ... hence that is what it shows for your deck level lights
 
VicS said:
Yes it says that in the installation instructions.
The black wire is the common negative, the red wire is the positive connection to the tricolour and the blue wire the positive connection to the anchor light.
Click to expand...

Have you checked that these wires are actually delivering volts/amps that will illuminate a test 12v. filament bulb? If they don't then there might be a fault with the panel.
 
aussi said:
I've tried contacting SVB about this a couple of times but they haven't replied (except to add 'LED not supported' to their site - hmmm, helpful!.
Click to expand...

It says "Not suitable for LED lights" on their web page so you may well be stymied if you want to retain all the functionality of the panel.

Assuming VicS is right (he usually is!) then you may well have to bypass some of the circuitry at the back of the panel. Without a circuit diagram or at least more info from you about what is on the panel it's difficult to give any useful suggestions.
 
Another thought!

How many bulbs do you have in the deck light circuit? Presumably one for the stern light and either one or two for the port/starboard light/s. That will increase the load on the circuit by two or three times. This could be enough to "activate" that circuit, but not enough to deactivate the "lights blown" indicators

A few things to try to see exactly what is happening
1. Insert a temporary extra load into the circuit. A filament bulb into the black wire at the bottom of the mast would probably be enough....i.e remove a black wire from its terminal, place bulb on terminal, place black wire on other end of bulb. Then switch on the circuit. If the bulb lights then check top of the mast. If those lights are on then you are part way there.

2. Remove a bulb from deck light circuit. If the other lights go off then that confirms 1 (above).

Do all this at night to avoid multiple trips in your dinghy.
 
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As LEDs are likely to be standard for mastheads in the future because of their very extended life, it surprised me that the panel maker cannot support LED bulbs. I wonder if car makers will follow suit....
 
Nav lights

Another approach would bhe to temporarily move the supply to the anchor light and tricolour to unused supply options on the panel. ie for bilge pump or interior lights. it seems there is only current detection for the nav lights/anchor lights. If the lights work OK from another source you will need to modify the circuits for the nav lights.
You may be able to move the light wires to the switch itself for a normal type supply. Or if the circuitry is open and accessible modify the circuitry to make it work correctly on LEDs.
Sensing of current flow can be done 2 ways. Either witha reed magnetic switch where a coil of wire carrying the current of the lamp generates enough magnetic field to operate the reed switch so indicate correct operation. Or fit a resistor which drops enough voltage when the lamp is working that switches a transistor on which operates the indicator light. In the first case you would change the coil to one with more turns to operate on the lower current. In the second type you increase the value of the resistor to
drop enough voltage with low LED current to indicate correctly. Both will take some experimenting. Perhaps not for you.
What is surprising is that LEDs don't light. Even though indicating a fault you would think it would still power the lights.
good luck olewill
 
Rigger Mortice said:
Another thought!
A few things to try to see exactly what is happening
1. Insert a temporary extra load into the circuit. A filament bulb into the black wire at the bottom of the mast would probably be enough....i.e remove a black wire from its terminal, place bulb on terminal, place black wire on other end of bulb. Then switch on the circuit. If the bulb lights then check top of the mast. If those lights are on then you are part way there.
Click to expand...

You need to add the load in parallel to test this theory, connecting an extra bulb between the black and wither the red or blue wires. Connecting it into the black wire as described will put it in series and will decrease the current used.
 
Thank you all for your time and the excellent suggestions. I'm definitely happy to experiment and will try adding a filament bulb to the circuit as a test. The deck level lights each have their own feed from the electronics in the panel, but you could be right about the detection circuitry as there is only a single warning light on the panel for both port and starboard lights. I wouldn't want to mess with the circuitry itself as there are integrated circuits on the board and thats beyond my expertise level.

If I'm going to experiment with resistors, do you have any guidelines on the sort of resistances I should be looking at?

And the idea of doing it at night is a good one, doh why didn't I think of that!
 
I think first step should be to check that a normal filament bulb will light if connected to both anchor and tricolour light wiring at the mast base. ( as suggested by Earlybird)
Leave the LED lantern connected and see if that works with the filament bulb connected in parallel

You have, if I understand correctly, already checked that the tri and anchor lights work when powered directly.
 
aussi said:
If I'm going to experiment with resistors, do you have any guidelines on the sort of resistances I should be looking at?
t!
Click to expand...

If the panel uses resistors for current sensing they are likely to be wire wound resistors so bigger than normal resitors.Electrically it will be probably connected between the lamp outlet wire and the switch. It may even be in the form of a piece of resistance wire ina loop. (looks like fuse wire) The value will be set to detect min 2 amps so about .25 ohm. Now if your new LED light draws .2 amp ie 10% of old lamp then you need to increase resistance to 10 times the original value.
I wonnnder if the panel makers can give you some guidance. good luck olewill
 
aussi said:
And the idea of doing it at night is a good one, doh why didn't I think of that!
Click to expand...

When I had LEDs fitted at the top of the mast I was so impressed (read sad) that I would ring my missus up as I was taking the dog for a walk and ask her to turn them on...
For the price of a pint I would stand ashore with my mobile and give lighting feedback if you are anywhere near me or failing that haven't you got any equally sad friends???
 
dslittle said:
When I had LEDs fitted at the top of the mast I was so impressed (read sad) that I would ring my missus up as I was taking the dog for a walk and ask her to turn them on...
For the price of a pint I would stand ashore with my mobile and give lighting feedback if you are anywhere near me or failing that haven't you got any equally sad friends???
Click to expand...
Hehe, thanks for the offer, as you're in Brighton and I'm in North Wales that might be tricky ;) I'll see whether I can rake up some sad friends!
 
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