Private Sale of Boat, does the Marina have a Right to a Bung?

[Normalfornorfolk]

What is the usual state of play if a boat is sold by privately while it is in a marina? Say the marina has a brokerage division but this was not involved?
Clearly if the berthing agreement had a clause covering this it is enshrined in stone, but what about a marina where no such clause exisits?
Surely then there is no way a marina can claim a slice of a cake they had no hand in making, though they might get snotty later about who next gets torent the mooring.

What's the normal story?

 

[prv]

Highly unlikely they're entitled to anything at all - even if there is such a condition in their contract. Such stipulations have been deemed unfair and unenforceable where the marina wasn't actively involved in the sale, and their trade association advises its members not to put clauses like this in their contracts, though a handful still do.

If no such clause in the contract then obviously no chance.

Nothing obliges them to let the buyer carry on in the berth, though, and don't forget that if you've signed up to a one-year berthing contract then you have no automatic right to end it early.

Pete

 

[Tranona]

MIxed I am afraid. Some marinas have such a clause in their T&C. However they generally have difficulty in enforcing, or rather can be easily challenged in court as has been reported here in the past. In addition the BMF to which most belong has made it very clear that they do not support such a policy.

So, if your marina has such a clause, suggest, if you think you are likely to fall foul of it, that next time you renew you delete the clause and ask them to sign that they accept. If you are not expecting to fall foul, just ignore it.

 

[Daydream believer]

Bradwell marina has that clause ( 1% of sale value) & when i challenged them they acted surprised that it was there & said that they had never enforced it.
If one said that the sale was carried out beyond the boundary of the marina then I would have thought that it was unenforceable anyway

 

[Normalfornorfolk]

Thanks guys, much as I suspected!

 

[Gunfleet]

Bradwell marina has that clause ( 1% of sale value) & when i challenged them they acted surprised that it was there & said that they had never enforced it.
If one said that the sale was carried out beyond the boundary of the marina then I would have thought that it was unenforceable anyway

I don't suppose they were acting. I had my boat in Bradwell (used to live in the village too) and I have to say they are one of the nicest, least officious marinas it's possible to use. The clause may be a hangover from some old contract.

 

[Capt. Clueless]

If I park my car in an NCP car park, and sell it from said car park, do I have to send NCP a cheque? Surely a mariner is a space that you rent to park your boat? Whats it got to do with them if you flog the boat, why should they be entitled to anything?

 

[Daydream believer]

I don't suppose they were acting. I had my boat in Bradwell (used to live in the village too) and I have to say they are one of the nicest, least officious marinas it's possible to use. The clause may be a hangover from some old contract.

+1---That was my impression, but it is there all the same. As much to their surprise as mine

 

[Daydream believer]

If I park my car in an NCP car park, and sell it from said car park, do I have to send NCP a cheque? Surely a mariner is a space that you rent to park your boat? Whats it got to do with them if you flog the boat, why should they be entitled to anything?

Do residential caravan parks do anything similar?

 

[AngusMcDoon]

Do residential caravan parks do anything similar?

I don't know if they still do, but they used to. They have the additional power that they can, or at least try to, stop you removing a static caravan because it requires access by a truck across their land. I've heard that some would only allow you to sell your van to the site owners at a price they specify, & sometimes at a time they specify, when a van reaches a certain age. This may all be in the past now.

 

[JumbleDuck]

I don't know if they still do, but they used to. They have the additional power that they can, or at least try to, stop you removing a static caravan because it requires access by a truck across their land. I've heard that some would only allow you to sell your van to the site owners at a price they specify, & sometimes at a time they specify, when a van reaches a certain age. This may all be in the past now.

I believe it still goes on - I have heard similar stories very recently about a park in Galloway.

 

[Normalfornorfolk]

If I park my car in an NCP car park, and sell it from said car park, do I have to send NCP a cheque? Surely a mariner is a space that you rent to park your boat? Whats it got to do with them if you flog the boat, why should they be entitled to anything?

That was my argument when the subject came up - it's a ridiculous concept, except that as mentioned above by Daydream and Angus much, much worse is/was the norm on residential caravan sites, and every bit as contentious and restrictive as Angus explained so there is a sort of precedent although if you buy a caravan on a site any Ts and Cs regarding resale at a fixed time/price will be thoroughly explained in the contract much like a car or boat lease/purchase.
The owner of a small boatyard (we're talking fresh water here) told us that if a broker sold a boat in his yard he would expect/hope to normally get passed 1% by the broker so it does happen. I was pretty surprised, to say the least.
Seeing as 1% is little less than the total commission on many house sales this seems an incredible amount for doing absolutely nothing.

A further question has occurred to me. If the marina does permit the boat to remain in it's original berth after the sale (whether augmented by the 1% or not) and there is a waiting list for berths as there may well be where does that leave them viz à viz the people waiting? Is that ethical?

 

[Heckler]

I believe it still goes on - I have heard similar stories very recently about a park in Galloway.

Abersoch park owners play that game as well.
Stu

 

[Fr J Hackett]

To the best of my knowledge I am the only forumite that has pursued this issue through the Small Claims Court, I have advised others on the details on which to base the action though. Mine was brought against Shotley Marina who after many months of argument eventually conceded two days before the trial. The case is universally regarded as unenforceable, I am aware of one case against a South Coast marina that went to court and was successful the marina did not appeal.
Posts #2 &3 really sum it up. The clause is a hang over from the small boat yards when boats were on moorings and they effectively acted as brokers rowing prospective purchasers out to the boat, which is why it seems still to be included in East coast marinas and others that have their roots in such operations but today there is no justification and they are trying it on, sometimes successfully.

 

[chrishelen]

I believe it still goes on - I have heard similar stories very recently about a park in Galloway.

My inlaws could only sell their caravan to the site owners in West Wales at a pittance.

 

[Bodach na mara]

In 1997 I sold a boat while it was laid up ashore in a boatyard (which is no longer in existence.) The contract I had with them was for lifting out, six months storage (October to March inclusive) and relaunching. The boat was sold in mid-January and the manager told me that there was no provision in the contract for a refund, but I could transfer the balance of the contract to the new owner for a payment of 0.5% of the sale price (for "administration") which I paid as I had sold it on that basis.

I probably should have queried it as administration costs the same for a large expensive boat as for a small cheap one, after all they don't charge lower boatyard fees for a manky auld boat. But the fee was only £35 so it was grin-and-bear-it time.

 

[Daydream believer]

In 1997 I sold a boat while it was laid up ashore in a boatyard (which is no longer in existence.) The contract I had with them was for lifting out, six months storage (October to March inclusive) and relaunching. The boat was sold in mid-January and the manager told me that there was no provision in the contract for a refund, but I could transfer the balance of the contract to the new owner for a payment of 0.5% of the sale price (for "administration") which I paid as I had sold it on that basis.

I probably should have queried it as administration costs the same for a large expensive boat as for a small cheap one, after all they don't charge lower boatyard fees for a manky auld boat. But the fee was only £35 so it was grin-and-bear-it time.

Actually that is slightly different to just selling the boat. One would assume that if you sold the boat the contract with the marina was broken & the new owner would have to pay the visitors day rate until he moved the boat.
So charging a fee for transferring the contract is a fair option.
What one cannot do - I assume- is sell the boat & expect to let the new owner leave the boat in the berth until expiry of the contract. You have, effectively, broken the contract & that is it. No term contract exists with the new owner & the marina, so the new owner should move or pay up whatever can be agreed with the marina owner( beit day rate or a term agreement). That is not the same as charging 1 % brokerage fee just because the boat is sitting in a berth & being sold

If you think that having paid for a year you are entitled to allow the boat to sit there with the new owner; compare it with the situation when you are away. The marina lets the berth to a visitor until you return. The new owner is , in effect, there on the same basis as a visitor. He only has the same rights as a visitor that the marina deems to grant to any visitor. He does not have any rights under a term contract with him as there is no term contract between him & the marina

 

[JumbleDuck]

What one cannot do - I assume- is sell the boat & expect to let the new owner leave the boat in the berth until expiry of the contract.

That surely depends on the contract. Is there anything in yours to say that you cannot pay someone else's berthing fees, or that the boat for which you have paid must remain in your ownership? An awful lot of sale adverts say something like "berthing is paid until the end of <future month>" so either a lot of people are misguided or a lot of places treat it as payment for the boat, not the boat/owner combination.

 

[Daydream believer]

That surely depends on the contract. Is there anything in yours to say that you cannot pay someone else's berthing fees, or that the boat for which you have paid must remain in your ownership? An awful lot of sale adverts say something like "berthing is paid until the end of <future month>" so either a lot of people are misguided or a lot of places treat it as payment for the boat, not the boat/owner combination.

You have said it there " someone else's berthing fees"
But , one has to read the small print, so debate here is irrelevant, as it depend on the contract in being between owner & marina

 

[Tranona]

You have said it there " someone else's berthing fees"
But , one has to read the small print, so debate here is irrelevant, as it depend on the contract in being between owner & marina

Berthing contracts are normally with the owner, not the boat, although debts can be attached to the boat. They are often non assignable without the marina's agreement, for which they may or may not make a charge.