Princess or Ferretti , what boat would you choose?

[BartW]

I remember taking sq58 into Cassis and thinking you couldn't get anything bigger in there. I went a bit too far into the calanque and couldn't turn around; I had to reverse out. I doubt they will accept a 23m becuase it would block the whole fairway. La Ciotat would be ok

The main marina in Cassis is not in a Callenque.
they have one quay for bigger boats, and one place at the end of each quay
Last year I was moored along a San lorenzo (20m I think)
will try to find a picture from then, you might know the boat model, she was for sale.

La Ciotat is big enough, but not as nice as Cassis
Bandol is another option in that area. (similar to La Ciotat)

 

[BartW]

The main marina in Cassis is not in a Callenque.
they have one quay for bigger boats, and one place at the end of each quay
Last year I was moored along a San lorenzo (20m I think)
will try to find a picture from then, you might know the boat model, she was for sale.

asking price was 900K

what boat would you choose ?

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

That is not a Sanlorenzo.
It is a 2000 more or less or late nineties Guy Couach 2100.
Very good seakeeping, featuring a military derived hull. Nice interiors though it does not have the yacht feel of a Sanlorenzo, Canados or a Possillipo. I think not even of that of a Ferretti.
Most of Couach 21s have open plan galley similar to a Sunseeker of the same period unless otherwise spec'd.

 

[BartW]

That is not a Sanlorenzo.
It is a 2000 more or less or late nineties Guy Couach 2100.
Very good seakeeping, featuring a military derived hull. Nice interiors though it does not have the yacht feel of a Sanlorenzo, Canados or a Possillipo. I think not even of that of a Ferretti.
Most of Couach 21s have open plan galley similar to a Sunseeker of the same period unless otherwise spec'd.

you're perfectly right, now I remember
thank you for correcting
is she loa 21m ?

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

Yes had a brochure somewhere on it but it is along those lines. I remeber in Genoa 2000 Mr.Couach invited me to a seatrial, and he insisted we do it in a Force 6 sea with 2.5 meters plus waves.
The only other builders which would insist something similar to try there boats in rough weather where Baia, and Italcraft.

 

[jfm]

Yup, Guy Couach not SL, and slightly >20m

I got mixed up. I thought Cassis was this place

 

[BartW]

Some serious thinking to be done here
This all started a few years ago as a modest plan, when I discovered an old Itama 160 see post #42 (10 beds in a 16m boat)
at a price that I could easily afford, Gradually this project became real, and beginning this year I started the search,
Initial candidates ( accommodation and budget) were +15 y o Princess and Ferretti's .
Canados 70 came along but this was so much bigger than the initial plan, but still within budget. Business is good, so I can afford the yearly cost,
but I realize that I’m in a completely other league now. The C70 is no less then 24m LOA, also for moorings, fuel and maintenance, I need some time to adapt to this in my mind
Now I’m even more confused, when a 10y old (original value 3mill euro) yacht comes in the picture and appear a real bargain !
These boats don’t even fit in Cassis Marina, and that was part of the original plan.
Its only 10 years ago that I started boating with a small Zodiac Futura MKIII
I’m Sorry for this philosophical intermezzo

First thing to do is looking at possible mooring places and all issues involved
And then make some fundamental decisions,
This Alalunga is really tempting, but over my budget today
That posillipo Techname 67 is perfect but I’m not in love.
That bleu Canados 70:
Pro’s: (considering the survey is not dramatic)
- Upgrades can be done according my taste, and timing according available funds
- Its old, so damage from the scuba tanks is not too bad
- Boat can be used as she is now, (after a good and deep polish)
- Its a challenging but interesting project (?)
- It’s a beauty when polished

Cons:
- Can expect many technical issues
- Very heavy wood super structure, higher fuel consumption and maintenance cost
- She’s so big, initial plan was <20m
- The DD engines, really old technology, should count in a pair of Cats
- Resale value is very lo.

 

[BartW]

If it were me, and I was satisfied the boat is good and I would keep it 5-10 years, I would throw another €150k into the budget and fit a pair of new Cat 's

is it only 150K for a pair ?
I expected 150K per piece.

one MTU is close to 150K but the salesman admitted that prices are outrageously expensive

 

[jfm]

is it only 150K for a pair ?
I expected 150K per piece.

one MTU is close to 150K but the salesman admitted that prices are outrageously expensive

I honestly don't know Bart. 150k was a complete guess. I have just bought a pair but I have no idea how much they cost!

Will fluctuate with $/€ rate, because made in South Carolina or somewhere stateside

My concern with Nefertari is that it could cost more than the final cost of an Alalunga from a motivated seller. And all the time you spend on Nefertari will "cost" you and your business. And the final resale value is lower. And the Alalunga is more ready for your diving use (swim platform, toilet for 5th curtain cabin, etc)

 

[BartW]

Yup, Guy Couach not SL, and slightly >20m

I got mixed up. I thought Cassis was this place

this is port Miou,
the first callenque to the West
difficult to reach by foot, many steep steps along the rocks

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

Nerfertari is a Canados 70S which used to come to Malta for a few years. I think it used to berth officially in the North of Rome, used to have a white hull back then. It came here for like four years in between 1995 till 98, with the owner and used to stay here for a couple weeks in early August.
She should off my mind a 93 built and is one of the last 70S produced before the model was tewaked and became a 23.

 

[BartW]

Nerfertari is a Canados 70S which used to come to Malta for a few years. I think it used to berth officially in the North of Rome, used to have a white hull back then. It came here for like four years in between 1995 till 98, with the owner and used to stay here for a couple weeks in early August.
She should off my mind a 93 built and is one of the last 70S produced before the model was tewaked and became a 23.

according the broker she was painted bleu in 2003, so thats possible,
it was not the last C70S,
its a 1990 boat with DD engines, the newer C70S 1992 have MAN, (like Bleu Angel)
the broker told me that the model became a 23 around 1994.

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

So old. She looked new in 1995, and I swam by her hull at the time in Comino.
Yes if it has DDs he is right.
23 was presented in 1995 and had minor modifications, I think different stern, longer platform, and modern radar arch was the most evident.
But loa for a 70s is I think 22 meters.
Which Alalunga are you considering? 70HT? Thats a lovely boat too.

 

[Divemaster1]

DD's

Some serious thinking to be done here.......

- The DD engines, really old technology, should count in a pair of Cats
- Resale value is very lo.

Bart,

If you are even considering changing the engines before buying the vessel, you should walk away now !! ... You would never recover the cost in running cost, servicing or resale value etc. Those 18.1L DD's will easily be running for another 20 years and be pushing out those 1000 hp plus for someone else who are willing to give them clean diesel, oil and air... (I would take them off your hands easily, whilst I may manage to fit them in to the beam of our 45ft, they may be a bit OTT power... but would only add another tonne or so of weight ).

The 92 series was in production into the early 90's and still remains in 1000's of industrial core applications where the operators & service providers expect 100% load 24/7 once started.... the run them flat out for several weeks, ship them onshore, a quick check & turnaround, then off again for another cycle. Basically tough metal, rebored from the 71 series, and whilst not having the same reliability reputation as the V12/71, they most definetly are good for several 10's of thousand hours when looked after,and having a couple of reasonable rebuilds.... Speak with any fishermen, people in the merchant navy, etc., and ask them about their experiences.

Basically, if you buy the boat to replace / sell the engines, you will make one or possibly two other boat owners very happy... so my advise would be to walk away now ...if that is your current train of thoughts...

 

[AndieMac]

Bart

If Nerf. surveys up well mechanically and structurally, and the owner is happy to 'meet the market' on price, why not do the deal, a nice soft furnishing renovation internally and a spruce up externally.
The boat is ready for the summer, owes you minimum money for a 21 metre vessel and gets you ready to discover if large boat ownership in the Med. really suits you.
As you can see, these older boats are slow movers on the market, if you have a change of mind.

 

[BartW]

Bart

If Nerf. surveys up well mechanically and structurally, and the owner is happy to 'meet the market' on price, why not do the deal, a nice soft furnishing renovation internally and a spruce up externally.
The boat is ready for the summer, owes you minimum money for a 21 metre vessel and gets you ready to discover if large boat ownership in the Med. really suits you.
As you can see, these older boats are slow movers on the market, if you have a change of mind.

that was the sentiment I had, if the survey is OK, she is usable as she is, with just a good polish ! Alf gave me back confidence in the engines !
but be aware that Nefer is almost 24m LOA

The Alal found by JFM is <22m LOA, perhaps moves at 500K, for a y2000 boat !!!! I didn't intend to spend that amount of money right now, but it makes me thinking seriously about a boat that seems to be in a very good condition, and from a much newer and totally different generation.

one thing I learned here now is that these big boats are slow movers, these Italian brokers were mainly moaning about a "almost dead market"
so if one of the owners is desparate to get the boat shifted .....
I must keep in mind that for them,while they are unable to sell, the costs and depreciation continu

 

[AndieMac]

From what we see, even as a country least hit by global dramas, no-one wants the older big mobos. The wealthy just want current models, and the middle class can't afford the ongoing ownership costs.

The companies 20 metre Princess has been on the market (because it doesn't meet our strict coding regulations) for nearly three years at half the second hand purchase price through the biggest broker in the country, with little interest.

 

[Nautorius]

This is for you Bart

http://www.boatshed.com/drettmann_80-boat-116610.html

I know this yacht. She had a full refit by the charter company 15 months before it got repossessed. Then sold to a guy who did not realise what he had bought until he had spent a fortune on new electronics and toys.

Basically this yacht has had more money spent on her in the last 5 years than they are asking for her......Stunning! I looked at her originally as a Live aboard...but SWMBO wanted a flat.

sat outside my apartment in a beautiful condition. John at boatshed is a straight up broker as well (i have bought and sold through him)

Just a thought

Paul

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

Bart
now that you are considering the Alalunga, along the Posillipo and Canados may be you can think of some other names!

- Fipa Maiora comes first in mind with its 20 and 22, 23 models. The 20 is still the same in production since 92, and it actually did start this class of size. later on in the nineties being copied by Ferretti and Azimut in a more commercial level. Does anyone have a longer standing model....
- CNL (cantieri navali di Lavagna builder of Admial) Ghibli 20 or 21 alloy built and lovely stuff.
- Sanlorenzo 70. There is two type of SLs 70 those built before 93 with shoe stern, and no integrated bathing platform, and those after that date which have a sloop stern as the new models. This was built till 97 before the wider 72 was introduced.

And last I would also put a Ferretti 225 Fly, or the old 70 in that picture.

 

[BartW]

I think you reasoning and approach is spot on.

I like to see a used boat in this "honest" condition.

The owner could have spent a few thousand pounds covering up the issues ready for sale. You would then walk about thinking what a fantastic loved boat, only for the problems to surface later due to the cheap cover ups.

At least you know what the current issues are and can have things put right properly. You will obviously have an extensive survey and sea trial so any other big things will hopefully be discovered.

It also sounds like you have the contacts, personnel and time to throw at a project like this, plus the forum lot to confuse matters further . I cant think of a better way to spend my time!!!

I think the main question is, do you go for a cheaper boat that needs obvious work or a more expensive one which appears to need less. Whos to say the more expensive one wont need just as much spent once you own it for a year.

IMHO if you can buy the cheaper one at a price which allows for all the current work and more importantly engine rebuilds, then you will end up with a great looking boat, as new engines and a "behind the scenes" knowledge of your boat.

I would think with the boat looking like it does, they must be open to serious offers as evidently the current owner has lost interest or cant afford to maintain their boat. Good news for you as the buyer in terms of purchasing but obviously lack of maitainence will cost you somewhere along the line.

My only other thought is on value. You may have to spend some large sums of money converting aspects of the boat to suit your diving / family requirements which you could never recover. In the future, changes could add value to the right buyer or reduce value/appeal to other buyers. Maybe a boat already more suitable in layout or design will leave you funds to spend on other smaller refinements.

Prior to your thread I had never heard of Canados and now I'm in love!!

Thanks so much for posting the pictures and letting us share in this exciting journey. I wish you the very best and hope all goes well which ever you decided to buy.

Hey Farsco,
thanks for being around, and share your enjoyment of this venture,
Your post summerises what I am thinking,
Moreover
There is one possible way to keep the resale value up, (and get her sold later)
If I manage to make the “Live aboard Diving “ thing to work,
The boat, the paperwork, the organization, the travel agency, (there are angency’s typically for that)
And then later sell it as a business, …?
For now, this is not the first aim, just want to enjoy myself, but you never know in the future.

To PYB and Nautorius,

first I am waiting wats going to happen with my offer on Nefertari,
I don't want to spend more then 400K right now
thanks for the sugestions, with this thread I learned to know a few makes I never heard about before, like Farsco
that's also part of the enjoiment of boating ....and this forum