Princess or Ferretti , what boat would you choose?

[Divemaster1]

a question,
One broker say's that it is practice in Italy, that
both the buyer and the seller need to pay each 5% comission to the broker, so that on top of the agreed price I have to add 5%

the other broker didn't mention anything about this, can I expect him to asc for 5% extra when we might make an agreement ?

........

Having bought a boat in Italy, I can confirm that this is the case ... but I found that everything is negotiable in Italy ... ..... and remember VAT may be on top of the brokers fee.... On the other hand it gives you some pushing power ... you can introduce a proposal of sliding scale fee, pending how low price he can convince owner to accept ... (we got ours about 30% below asking price ... )

Good luck !!

 

[BartW]

Just a quick thought, 'cause I'm going out in a minute:
I sincerely wish you the first, but I'd fear the latter.

how come some very old wood or steel displacement boats (many of them in Holland) are so much more expensive, then these nicely made planing boats ?

Linsen to name one

 

[BartW]

post deleted

 

[Divemaster1]

I watched ours as well for a while... and price paid was less then 50% of what she was for sale for, so you are in the general ballpark figure I'd be in (based on own experience)... I may have been a bit more pushy and gone lower as a starter, to give me more room for manouver ... (owner is not likely to accept first low offer)....

The boat have potential, but need a fair bit of TLC + cash to shine like she should... pictures do not tell the full story so dificult to say what I think about the boat, other than what seems to be a fair bit of cosmetic work. Cosmetics are easy to resolve ..... mechanical and technical are not... so if I was serious, I'd have a professional surveyor in to have a good going through the mechanics (pumps, electro-mechanic, hydraulics, and other rotational equipment).... then based on this report made the call ...

 

[MapisM]

how about if there is a drastic price difference, lets say
Bleu Angel is >400K euro
and
Nefertari is <200K euro ?

I'm afraid this is a question to which you must find your very personal answer, Bart.
Jfm in his post #153 and Farsco in the one which followed already summarised nicely the pros and cons of both alternatives.
I could second both their views, even if they tend to opposite conclusions.
See, 200k is a lot of money to play with, but depending on who you're using for the refitting, and on how much you can take care of it yourself, it could turn out in a waste of money or in a gorgeous job.

Follow your heart, I'd say.
Pleasure boats are pretty much a love affair, if they would be a matter of rationality there wouldn't be any around...

Re.your other questions, one has been already addressed (correctly) by Divemaster.
And the other, well... How is it that you're still looking at displacement boats?
Do tell, you know that they would be a wiser choice for the usage you have in mind, don't you?
Btw, I'm sure you could find some equally well built ones for comparable or even better prices - though I'm afraid you should look more to the other side of the pond, for both a wider choice and better prices.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Its threu that Bleu Angel has been cared for much better, but still most of the machinery is similar age like Nefertari
Nefertari has been in use last year, and had a full time captain at that time.
I have posted mainly "nice" pictures from Bleu Angel, and mainly "bad" pictures from Nefertari, But general impression was that the e/r from Nefertari looked better (cleaner) then Bleu Angel,
Most bad pictures are cosmetic things. In bleu Angel are many finishings that are not our preferred collor oa Leather and fabric finishings, gold collor lights, beige curtains,... with Nefertari we could renew everything according our own taste... ?

how about if there is a drastic price difference, lets say
Bleu Angel is >400K euro
and
Nefertari is <200K euro ?

ofcause a good survey would be needed before final decisions are made

Bart, here's what I think. Certainly Blue Angel is in better condition than Nefertari but with any 20 yr old boat, whatever its apparent condition, the likelihood is that big bills will come along soon. If Nefertari really is €200k cheaper than Blue Angel, I would go for Nefertari but only assuming that you have plenty of spare cash left to bring this boat upto top condition. If it were me, I'd be thinking about a minimum of €150k, probably more. New teak decks and engine rebuilds will probably eat most of that that up easily. The reason that older bigger mobos seem cheap to buy is that they cost a lot to keep! The other advantage of buying Nefertari and virtually refitting her would be that you could hope that future maintenance costs would be less and you'd know the boat from back to front having put so much work into here. Make no mistake though; Nefertari and indeed most large mobos of this age will be 'projects' but I'm sure you know that. As for annual running costs, I budget €30-40k for my little 53 footer so you better budget a lot more than that

 

[BartW]

How is it that you're still looking at displacement boats?
Do tell, you know that they would be a wiser choice for the usage you have in mind, don't you?

no, not really, lets say I'm not yet ready for that
I look at it this way, with a planing boat you can go at displacement speed, but not the other way round, yes I know sea keeping and all that.....

I was just thinking in general, sometimes I'm surprised about some prices you hear about D vessels, and some of them are VERY old, but upgraded many times, how about your boat fe ?
I was just wondering why not own a beautifully made timeless planing vessel (I'm not sure if this exists) and do the upgrades that are needed, yes even new engines when apropriate.
I'm not sure if a pair of 1500HP Cats would fit in a C70S

 

[BartW]

thank you all for the thoughtfull comments, really apreciated !!!

200K is a lot of money to spoil, but considering the anual cost puts everything in another perspective as Deleted User sugested,

If I was really sure that Bleu Angel is technically so much better I wouldn't doubt, but still it is a 19y old boat, for sure with similar problems to be expected.

Therefor I still like the idea of doing a bargain on the buying price, ofcause spend some money on a professional survey,
and then gradually upgrade the boat according my own taste, still this is for me a nice advantage.
Financially; I like investing a lower initial amount, and paying for upgrades according my preferred model and price.

only one remaining concern, even when rebuild, that DD engine remains very old technology, and I don't believe its apropriate to put in two new engines.

Upgrading the boat (IMHO) is as much fun as sailing with her,
Constant trouble ofcause is no fun at all

another important thing now to consider (yes Mike I know you asked) is decide on a permanent mooring that allows for the work I have in mind.
I know that not every marine allows external company's to work on boats., ...
and also accessbility to the boat in that marina,
or how easy it is to get to the marina from home.
SOF is the most easy to get to for me, but perhaps not the most convenient for the work. (will visit that marina that Deleted User sugested between the Rhone and Marseille very soon ...)

ones again thank you all !

 

[jfm]

I have posted mainly "nice" pictures from Bleu Angel, and mainly "bad" pictures from Nefertari, But general impression was that the e/r from Nefertari looked better (cleaner) then Bleu Angel,
Most bad pictures are cosmetic things. In bleu Angel are many finishings that are not our preferred collor oa Leather and fabric finishings, gold collor lights, beige curtains,... with Nefertari we could renew everything according our own taste... ?

how about if there is a drastic price difference, lets say
Bleu Angel is >400K euro
and
Nefertari is <200K euro ?

OK, I had got the impression BA was MUCH better. If it isn't, then Nefer makes more sense. As Mapis said just above with 100% precision, you have all the close up data so you must make the right choice, but yes if the boats are actually fairly similar then Nefer is the one to buy

If you are clever about it, and you are, €200k will go a long way. I dont think it needs new decks, and for that money you can remove all the brass/gold things, re-do the upholstery, and refurbish all the machinery and pipe work, plus new electronics, and repaint. At that point you will have a fine boat. It will still need much annual maintenance, but it will be a fundamentally sound boat with very fine internal finish and comfort. It might be better to hire a good boat fitter for 6 months than pay shipyards to do everything

If it were me, and I was satisfied the boat is good and I would keep it 5-10 years, I would throw another €150k into the budget and fit a pair of new Cat C32s at 1400hp each or so. And while the floor is out, 2 new Onan or Kohler 22.5Kws, which are about €14k each afaik. Some of that cost (not a big %, I accept) would come back to you in better fuel economy. You would then have one of the finest 70ers on the water, all for €650k approx. To keep the budget carefully managed, I would not bother with €15k of wood floor in the saloon, and would put €2k worth of carpet instead. Wood floor can be done another year if you need it

I do share your liking of the c70. For what you want it seems perfect and the idea of making a 5th cabin to starboard of the inside helm makes good sense to me (using a curtain)

Much depends on detailed survey. If for example the fuel tanks are bad you have major expense in changing them, for example. But you know all that!

By the way, Alalunga 72 would be worth a look. Same accom layout (4 cabin + bow crew = 5 cabins). Same possibility to make 2p cabin beside helm. Same fly space for tender. Toilet behind helm seat port side is standard fit. Bigger bathing platform so maybe that will save you big cost compared with Canados 70. Same quality Italian shipyard, but (I think) the superstructure is GRP not wood so that is better for maintenance. Just as an example, this one is year 2000, MAN1200 (LE406 v12, non common rail I expect) with only 750hrs, Kohler gensets, and maybe price is 550-600k euro, VAT paid. For this you have a boat that might need no work, whereas Nefer will end up costing you maybe 500k and two years of your life... Also some Alalungas have MTU engines, which are niiiiice. I think Ala72 is worth some research

 

[MapisM]

I would throw another €150k into the budget and fit a pair of new Cat C32s at 1400hp each or so.

Doh! talk about reading my mind...
I thought almost the same while looking at the e/r pics.
"Almost" because I was actually thinking of C18s. Much more appropriate imho, because:

1) they are available with outputs up to 1150hp (at the same rpm as the C32!), and if the hull is already good for 30 kts with the 1100, I don't think it makes any sense to look for more;

2) they allow a lot of savings vs. the C32: initial cost, maintenance, space in the e/r, and almost 3 tons less overall! Not sure about the Detroits, but probably also against them the weight saving would be significant - hence with even better speed.

Worth a careful thought, if the Detroits need a rebuild.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

If it were me, and I was satisfied the boat is good and I would keep it 5-10 years, I would throw another €150k into the budget and fit a pair of new Cat C32s at 1400hp each or so. And while the floor is out, 2 new Onan or Kohler 22.5Kws, which are about €14k each afaik. Some of that cost (not a big %, I accept) would come back to you in better fuel economy. You would then have one of the finest 70ers on the water, all for €650k approx. To keep the budget carefully managed, I would not bother with €15k of wood floor in the saloon, and would put €2k worth of carpet instead. Wood floor can be done another year if you need it

The trouble with that is that the boat will never be worth €650k or anywhere near ever again. It will be worth towards the top end of the C70 price range for its age (€400k?) and no more. BartW might as well spend €650k on a boat now and know its going to be worth somewhere near that in 5yrs or whenever he sells it (such as the Allulunga in your link). Nobody can know how long they are going to want to or be able to keep a boat

By the way, Alalunga 72 would be worth a look. Same accom layout (4 cabin + bow crew = 5 cabins). Same possibility to make 2p cabin beside helm. Same fly space for tender. Toilet behind helm seat port side is standard fit. Bigger bathing platform so maybe that will save you big cost compared with Canados 70. Same quality Italian shipyard, but (I think) the superstructure is GRP not wood so that is better for maintenance. Just as an example, this one is year 2000, MAN1200 (LE406 v12, non common rail I expect) with only 750hrs, Kohler gensets, and maybe price is 550-600k euro, VAT paid. For this you have a boat that might need no work, whereas Nefer will end up costing you maybe 500k and two years of your life... Also some Alalungas have MTU engines, which are niiiiice. I think Ala72 is worth some research

This thread has really opened my eyes to what good value some of these older big mobos are. This Ala72 looks fab and its only done 740hrs so its barely run in

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

SOF is the most easy to get to for me, but perhaps not the most convenient for the work. (will visit that marina that Deleted User sugested between the Rhone and Marseille very soon ...)

If you're talking about Port Napoleon, you will be impressed by the facilities there, particularly the amount of hardstanding and storage sheds available and when I was last there in 2005, there were plenty of maintenance companies in the yard. The security is also good. But you won't be impressed by the surrounding area. Its flat and swampy and the nearest town (Port St Louis) is not attractive. Take plenty of mosquito repellent as the mosquitos are the size of crows although we heard that the local council were trying to do something about them. Port Napoleon is very much a working marina where boats go to lie securely over winter and for maintenance but its not a place that you'd particularly want to moor in permanently

 

[jfm]

SOF is the most easy to get to for me, but perhaps not the most convenient for the work. (will visit that marina that Deleted User sugested between the Rhone and Marseille very soon ...)

BartW, be VERY careful. The rental of a 23x6 rectangle of tarmac in SoF is mind blowingly expensive. If you have the boat in the yard for 6 months the rental of the space could cost more than the refit. Land by the water's edge in SoF is tens millions of euros per hectare, so the rental cost is VERY high.

When I antifouled the sq58, the rental of the space cost more than the antifoul job! I used to hurry to do it in 3 days!

 

[jfm]

This thread has really opened my eyes to what good value some of these older big mobos are. This Ala72 looks fab and its only done 740hrs so its barely run in

Me too. Though it's a bit late

 

[jfm]

C18s. Much more appropriate imho,

Yes, agreed. The c32 are monsters and not the best choice here.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

BartW, be VERY careful. The rental of a 23x6 rectangle of tarmac in SoF is mind blowingly expensive. If you have the boat in the yard for 6 months the rental of the space could cost more than the refit. Land by the water's edge in SoF is tens millions of euros per hectare, so the rental cost is VERY high.

When I antifouled the sq58, the rental of the space cost more than the antifoul job! I used to hurry to do it in 3 days!

Agreed but Port Napoleon has loads of hardstanding, in fact according to the brochure, enough hardstanding for 1000 boats. I've just looked at the tariff and the cost of open air hardstanding for a 23m boat is the same as the in water, around €1000 per month during winter which in Med terms is reasonable. Covered hardstanding in a shed is about €1500 per month which again is reasonable.
Generally though you are right. It was the same in Majorca. You took your boat out of the water for minimum period, splash of antifoul and dash, because of the high cost of hardstanding

 

[BartW]

Port Napoleon is very much a working marina where boats go to lie securely over winter and for maintenance but its not a place that you'd particularly want to moor in permanently

I was just thinking the other way round,
leave the boat in Port Napoleon, all year for working on her and maintenance, and each time when I am there myself, I sail her to a nice place such as Cassis.
similar to Port Montenegro versus Cavtat


Last week I discovered that the max boat length in Cassis is 20m
isn't that Very sad news !!!!!!!!
C70 is 23m, Alal72 is 22m

I'm not sure if they are strikt on that,
I will go there and asc, also to Port Napoleon, thanks again for the tip !!!

 

[jfm]

cost of open air hardstanding for a 23m boat is the same as the in water, around €1000 per month during winter which in Med terms is reasonable. Covered hardstanding in a shed is about €1500 per month which again is reasonable.

Thanks Deleted User. Agreed, they seem quite reasonable prices. I must be conditioned by CDA rates which are perhaps 5x those figures. Sorry for scaremongering!

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

I was just thinking the other way round,
leave the boat in Port Napoleon, all year for working on her and maintenance, and each time when I am there myself, I sail her to a nice place such as Cassis.
similar to Port Montenegro versus Cavtat

Yes thats a good idea. All I was saying is that the marina and the local town is not attractive so there are no pretty cafes and restaurants to walk around in the evening or fancy shops nearby (thats probably a good thing). Nor are there any nice beaches nearby either. It is very definitely not like Cavtat. If you want to go out in the evening, you have to drive somewhere.
On the other hand its relatively cheap, secure and quite central for reaching the Cote d'Azur, Balearics and Spain

 

[jfm]

Last week I discovered that the max boat length in Cassis is 20m
isn't that Very sad news !!!!!!!!
C70 is 23m, Alal72 is 22m

I remember taking sq58 into Cassis and thinking you couldn't get anything bigger in there. I went a bit too far into the calanque and couldn't turn around; I had to reverse out. I doubt they will accept a 23m becuase it would block the whole fairway. La Ciotat would be ok