Princess 42.

Sportsboats are for people who prefer boating to waterborne caravanning (if we're going to get ridiculous about it OG! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif)

Basically imagine driving at 60mph along a winding A road in a Lotus Elise with the roof down, or a Range Rover (sat on the roof of the Range Rover perhaps if you want a true flybridge analogy). They're both doing the same speed on the same bit of road but one feels much faster, more alert and alive, and being closer to the water (or road) makes you feel more connected and like you're travelling quicker. It's much more fun.

Similarly however the accommodation is more compromised in the sportier version, although in the case of boats nothing like the compromises between those two vehicles of course.

In the UK, a sportcruiser allows you to be outside on a nice day but more protected by the screen than you would be perched up on a flybridge. You'll also have your friends or family with you enjoying the ride rather than perched on top alone whilst your crew huddle back down in the cockpit out of the wind. At anchor you've got all the day space of a big open cockpit to enjoy rather than a little cockpit with no view forward (due to the cabin) or up the stairs and perched on top again (probably on your own if there's any breeze as far more exposed).

And generally of course sportsboats have better performance (so again more fun, or increased range in a set timeframe), are more fuel efficient (carting about less weight), better sea keeping (hull design tends to be more orientated toward performance than interior bulk/space, less top hamper upsetting dynamics).

So for serious cruising, time aboard (holiday home), or the ability to drive inside when it's raining the flybridge has it, but for actual boating on nice days (travelling or stopped) the sportscruiser is superior.

They both have their merits of course, horses for courses and all that.

But to suggest that sports cruisers are "rubbish" is the ramblings of, well, an old git and basically nonsense. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
This is the age old question - Flybridge or Sports cruiser.
Are you old enough to own a Flybridge? - there's a minimum age requirement you know. /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Anyway, it will always be a Flybridge for me.
You get, effectively, an extra room and it is easy to switch positions in differing weather conditions.

The P42 is, IMO the best small motor cruiser on the market.
We've had both Sealine and Princess and without a doubt the Princess has the edge.
 
Not the place but what are thoughts of the jeanneau 58 [image]
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Well, I thoughtthe 50 I went on in Dusseldorf was nicely thought out and well screwed together. too much high gloss cherry and cream leather - they need to innovate and lead rather than copy and get left behind, otherwise they will be viewed as just a copy.
 
IPS on a 58' flybridge, that's a first as far as I know, though Poweryacht will probably correct me. The rest of the boat looks standard Jeanneau from the little you can glean from an artists impression, practical and conservative and unlikely to set the world alight styling wise. IPS though, on a 58' flybridge, that's quite revolutionary.
 
Not sure about that upper sun thinggy.
I cant see it doing much for the fuel economy.
At least with a bimini you can take it down.

Other than that, I'd go aboard if there was one at a boat show and look closer.
Not that I need a new boat right now, though.
 
The Rodman 41 F/b had IPS about 3 yrs ago but I agree it's still unusual to see IPS/Zeus on a F/b boat although I think Azimut have 1 IPS f/b model now and so does Grand Banks, I believe. I expect it's only a matter of time
 
That's unfair. IPS on a F/b boat is relatively new and the J58 also has a hydraulically lowering bathing platform and it has a nice seating area at the bow with a foldaway awning both of which are rare on a boat in this class. The layout though is a bit of a Ferretti copy with a large open plan saloon, aft galley, internal f/b stairs and a main cabin with a stupid Ferretti type chaise longue
Altogether IMHO, I think there's plenty enough in the J58 to set it apart from the herd but, as with all French boats, it's the price that's going to be the clincher. If it's a lot cheaper than the AZ58 or Princess 58, then it might sell but, if it's around the same price, I'd rather have one of the others
More info on J58 HERE
 
I think AZ have only the 43S with IPS so far, altough they where testing the 50 oficially with Volvo
then they have the new Atlantis 50x4 part of the group too, but that is also an open hard top
the P58 will sell well if priced well, altough it is hard to compete on the looks department with more famous brand it is very practical indeed too
 
if my mind is right for a Monday it is the first +50 fly
you have big problems for IPS on fly as you need a flat vee aft but also infront of the pods, with many current hull design 15-18 deg aft and about 20 plus infront of the propellers that makes the boat bend a lot in turns and is a bit dangerous in turns, that is why it is not widely used on fly so far
just to give an idea Rodman and Astondoa 44 and 42 have 12 degrees vee aft and about 15 infront of the props
many hulls today from most builders are based on the same boat as 10/20 years ago if not more in some cases, but some extensions here and there
Zeus ZF pod is easier to put on todays hull but the market is dominated by Volvo so far, I think 8/10 goes to the Swedes really
but apart the revolution this more happened cause of the recent big IPS3 units then IPS its self, as that was the real problem for the builders to start putting it in bigger boats
I also read somewhere that thanks to new computer programming the vee problem can also be reduced by making one pod turning less to the other therefore diminishing the bending...
 
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many hulls today from most builders are based on the same boat as 10/20 years ago if not more

[/ QUOTE ]Well, deep vee hulls on planing boats are there for good reasons, regardless of IPS.
I wonder if Volvo ever tried to sell it to Camuffo, who builds 25 degrees vee flybridges capable of 45 kts on shafts. I would be curious to hear his reply, when suggested to reduce the vee by 10 degrees before sticking the thing in it...

My impression is that a proper IPS f/b should have also rudders for steering at speed without throwing the crew overboard, obviously disabling the pod rotation. But one of their major selling points towards builders is the cost reduction, and such installation would screw it up.
 
more then the turning of the pod, the problem seems more to be the forward looking pods, infact the Zeus ZF have normal bending in turns helped also by the fact that it is fitted flat too, because it is fitted in prop like tunnels/pockets

I think many builders really would like to jump on the Zeus ZF, but in EU it is hard for them to avoid Volvo
we will see how this story develops now with ZF going independant from Mercruiser Cummins, this might help a lot especially in the bigger boats, where many people dont like the big HP Volvo engines versus a Cat/MAN/MTU
 
I don't know if the problem is enhanced by the forward facing props.
Obviously the steering geometries are different, so that's bound to affect the behaviour somehow.
But generally speaking, it doens't take much more than common sense to understand why ANY pod, when rotated, generates a twisting force on the hull - the higher the vee/pod angle, the stronger the force.
In fact, we've never seen sterndrives or outboards mounted perpendicular to the hull vee rather than to the waterline, have we?
 
A bit late into the debate but just to add another vote for the P42. We came over from Fairline. Targa 35, then Phantom 42 (struggled to pay the additional money to jump up to a flybridge at the time but wouldn`t move back to a sports boat now). In fairness we use it to sleep on and travel around rather than as a day boat.

The Phantom 40 has got a better flybridge layout but that`s it and we just don`t sit up there often. The UK weather is so poor and often in the summer evenings it gets damp. I kept banging my knees everywhere when I looked round the Phantom 40 compared to my older Phantom 42 so I felt as though I was going backwards for the extra money.

The rear cockpit with the covers off is lovely, especially as the saloon doors open wide to blend the saloon to the cockpit. 435hp D6 engines are perfect. The boat pops up on the plane well. Initially the superchargers do their work and then the turbos take over. Close quarters handling is also very predictable and intuitive. Not sure why Bob the builder struggles with his flybridge covers. Whip the 2 ends off and roll them up, slide the centre section out and roll it up as you go then either leave them on the back seats or in the lazarette. He must be really old and decrepit or something. Either that or he needs instructions on the like his wellies /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif Next thing you know he`ll be trying to re-live his youth on a sports boat and getting on the Tiger Tiger guest list at Gunwharf quays !!!

The other area where the P42 shines is it`s visibility from the lower helm when it comes to close quarters handling. You still pop up to the flybridge sometimes when coming in to moor up sometimes but not as often as you`d think. With the curtains pulled back and the metal blinds raised and locked up you can see an awful lot. I`ve yet to step aboard a flybridge which equals the P42 in that respect.

We have done a lot of our journeys from down below including cross channel runs.

Little things like the new Dometic electric toilets are head and shoulders above the Jabasco (or similar) units you usually get on that size of boat and indeed all the fittings are well known quality brands. Chargers (mastervolt), switchgear, etc.

There is also enough timber around the boat to make it feel special. There are a couple of silly niggles but nothing to write home about. The heater outlet exiting to the rear of the 2 seater pull out sofa would probably be my biggest gripe.

As for the number of 42`s on the market consider yourself lucky and enjoy it whilst you can. When we bout ours new right at the end of 2007 there weren`t any 2nd hand boats available and I could count on 1 hand the number I`ve seen since.

Speaking with Adam and the gang at London they have a good selection at the moment. Some are people nervous about their financial future or who have put their boats up for sale just to see what happens. Some are people trading up. The new P50 has attracted a lot of interest from P42 owners because it offers a real difference for the considerable financial contribution required to step up to a 48/50 footer. Up to it`s launch all you got was the same as your P42 but a bit roomier and a 3rd cabin. Now you get a full beam owner`s cabin and a second dining / under passage seating area. It`s enough to make a lot of P42 owners take the financial plunge.

Undoubtedly it`s the lower end of the market that`s struggling to find it`s confidence again hence there are a few around but I suspect it may not take too long for the backlog to clear. I have a feeling there`s a steady trickle of interested buyers starting to appear out of the woodwork and the Euro rate helps. Our Phantom 42 ended up on mainland Europe.

Anyway good luck with the search and I don`t think you`ll be too far off the mark if you do end up in the P42 club.

All the best.

Henry /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
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Next thing you know he`ll be trying to re-live his youth on a sports boat and getting on the Tiger Tiger guest list at Gunwharf quays !!!

[/ QUOTE ]

Have we met?? /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Cheers
Jimmy "I hate canvas" the builder
 
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I spose I want my boat to be more boaty. I do enjoy the whole outdrive thing -

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Would have to agree with this comment, Fly-bridge boats do feel a bit more ship-like not so 'boaty'. I bought the Phantom 38 which is probably the smallest of the 40' group of F/bs' and in many ways it was great. I also liked the Phantom 40 and Princess' P42 and to be fare the P42 is considerably larger and offers far more space eveywhere but being larger and heavier needs more power than the similar Fairlines.

For me the P42 is the superior boat and Princess certainly made the right decision with the engine choice. The D6 435s' really push it along and like mine in the Targa, very economical at cruising revs. I know exactly why you would prefer to go back to a sports boat Jimmy but if you go above V42 then you may be disappointed in the loss of 'boaty' feel!

Well done 'Ari' with your quick comparison. Spot on, in my opinion. Of course, each to his own. In my case I prefer shafts to outdrives but Jimmy prefers Legs. The boats are all so different but I think I would prefer a Fly-bridge in the med but for UK local offshore cruising, Jane much prefers the sports boat and I like them both. BUT, there are quite a few that have poor visibility and minimal standing head room with the covers up. Also, many that leak as suggested by the 'oldgit' but not the T40! /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

If I was looking for a P42, I definitely jump at yours. No silly bullshit 'push' intended but I know your boat and it is like new at that spec, it's a great saving on new without the wait and it's now well sea trialed and sorted. I don't think I would ever go for new. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
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The boats are all so different but I think I would prefer a Fly-bridge in the med

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It depends very much whether you use your boat as your second home in the Med (as we do) or whether you have an appt/villa to live in and the boat is for day boating and short cruises. We started off with a Targa 48 in the Med and, even though it was a big boat, the accomodation is just not spacious enough for living in. Thats the main reason we sold it and changed to a flybridge boat. I happen to think that f/b boats have a lot of other advantages but I won't get into that because it always ends in an argument with nautical /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
Yes I take your point but as I haven't been boating on my own boat in the Med, I can only assume certain conditions. You need a biggish boat to live on it and a T48, though not small, doesn't have enough room when compared to an apartment.

I always wonder why there's such an ongoing debate over Sports versus F/bridge on here. They are so different. On that basis, where does a grand Banks fit in? Of course it has a fly' but it's not a planing boat and has no performance to speak of.

I can think of several arguments for and against both, for me, it's just that a Sports boat suits us best on the south coast as the moment.

A 40' fly is very different to a 60' fly. Back to this thread, the P42 is suitable for south coast cruising where as a P67 would be limited as considerable booking ahead and planning would be required to go places in the height of summer. They're both Fly bridge boats and both made by Princess, yet totally different. The same would apply to Sports and then again hardtops.
 
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