Pride comes before a sink!

[Dave_Snelson]

Seahope - I do hope you get this sorted, as we all do.jfm is right about giving advice without the benefit of the policy wording and it's interpretation to hand. I had two incidents with my now ex-boat, Coney Island. On one occasion I damaged a set of propellors (twin 290 DP) rescuing a family off rocks near Pwllheli. The insurance company were fine about this, even though I had deliberately driven my boat into a dangerous area (well they had a MOB as well). They not only paid for the props but paid for a full underwater hull inspection - no expense spared.

On the other hand, I had a leaking outdrive seal (unnoticed by me initially) and the boat was slowly sinking on it's trots mooring. Luckily I got a call from the HM saying that my boat was looking a bit low at the back end. It certainly was; nearly touching the bathing platform. I drained it and there was no problem. I just had to get the drive repaired. I spoke to the insurance Co to see if this was covered and they said no. I joked about me perhaps being better off if I had just let the boat sink. They were quite emphatic - "no sir, you shouldn't ever do that; you are not covered for sinking at your mooring".

Different companies, different approaches and interpretations. Good luck and do let us know your progress.

 

[petem]

They were quite emphatic - "no sir, you shouldn't ever do that; you are not covered for sinking at your mooring".

Nice! Just goes to show how important it is to check what the policy covers before you find yourself having to make a claim!

 

[DAKA]

Daka I agree I would ask the insurer for the name of the person (probably claims underwriter) who has been allocated my case and deal directly / solely with them. Contrary to what Daka says you should get proper professional advice at this stage for the letters that the Op rights.

Just for clarity, I agree professional advice is required at this stage however the Insurers dont need to be aware of this.
The letters should appear to be coming from the ph.

The professional advice should be from the op's Broker, its him who should have the headache at this stage being asked all sorts of questions as already suggested on this forum.

Legal advice at this early stage can be counter productive, the FSA have put complaint procedures in place which have real teeth and decisions are usually made in the policy holders favour if there is any ambiguity at all, many cases that the Ombudsman forces payment would clearly fail without doubt in a civil court.
The Insurers know this and are more concerned about answering to the ombudsman than to a court.
Its important to get any rejections of the claim in writing.

I recently had a lot of fun with DAS/Amicus legal who initially rejected a claim on 5 different exclusions including one exclusion apparently to be found on page 18 of a 9 page policy .

Many marine Insurers are only brokers handling money on behalf of Lloyd's syndicates and as such its not their money to loose, in many respects its better for them to cough up easily in order to maintain their reputations, thus a lot of claims are paid out that arent technically covered.

If the claim is escalated too early it will attract the attention of the most experienced and knowledgeable underwriters who you will find are far more difficult to argue with.

 

[Ubergeekian]

Seahope - I do hope you get this sorted, as we all do.

Hear, hear!

 

[petem]

Just for clarity, I agree professional advice is required at this stage however the Insurers dont need to be aware of this.
The letters should appear to be coming from the ph.

The professional advice should be from the op's Broker, its him who should have the headache at this stage being asked all sorts of questions as already suggested on this forum.

Legal advice at this early stage can be counter productive, the FSA have put complaint procedures in place which have real teeth and decisions are usually made in the policy holders favour if there is any ambiguity at all, many cases that the Ombudsman forces payment would clearly fail without doubt in a civil court.
The Insurers know this and are more concerned about answering to the ombudsman than to a court.
Its important to get any rejections of the claim in writing.

I recently had a lot of fun with DAS/Amicus legal who initially rejected a claim on 5 different exclusions including one exclusion apparently to be found on page 18 of a 9 page policy .

Many marine Insurers are only brokers handling money on behalf of Lloyd's syndicates and as such its not their money to loose, in many respects its better for them to cough up easily in order to maintain their reputations, thus a lot of claims are paid out that arent technically covered.

If the claim is escalated too early it will attract the attention of the most experienced and knowledgeable underwriters who you will find are far more difficult to argue with.

I agree largely but not convinced advice should come from the broker. I've already mentioned the Ombudsman and agree that the courts would take a dim view of any action without first resorting to the Ombudsman and / or some other dispute resolution process.

Pete

 

[cem]

insurance brokers are themselves very well insured and are often the very best people to advise you as to the course of action and to deal with the insurance company on your behalf, precisly the reason i use a broker for all my insurance; house, car, buisness (and when sorted out ) boat... when i set up my business 6 years ago i was quoted for various insurances that we needed, PI insurance was on the list but the bank wanted us to have £1million cover, the broker looked at what we do and reduced the cover to £1/4 million saved us a fortune and stated in writting that he felt that this was sufficent cover and if a claiment came alone and sued us for more than the insured figure then i should calim against him for underselling the policy as his insurance was for £10 million

really good luck getting this sorted, it makes my issues pale into insignificance

 

[Seahope]

I agree largely but not convinced advice should come from the broker. I've already mentioned the Ombudsman and agree that the courts would take a dim view of any action without first resorting to the Ombudsman and / or some other dispute resolution process.

Pete

Certainly the Broker has not been particularly helpful in terms of giving any advice, only in terms of why I don't have a claim. They actually produce the policy booklet which explains the complaints procedure. First esclation would be to their Director of Customer Service cc'd to the relative underwriting insurance companies point of contact. Then, once that process has completed if no positive outcome first escalation would be to the Insurance Ombudsman.

 

[jfm]

Blimey, listen to what broker says but do not take any advice from them (in the sense of advice that you take as "must be good" and act upon). Scuse my bluntness, but (i) your interests and the broker's do not fully coincide; and (ii) you need to be open to the possibility that an employee of an insurance broker at this level of the market is not a sharp tool in any box. There are far more shiit hot lawyer/dispute experienced types on this forum than in your broker or your insurance company. You give me a claim on the margins of payout/no payout, to be argued by the top 3 loss adjusters from say Crawfords (the world's biggest and most prestigious firm of loss adjusters) and a team of 3 that I can select from this forum, and I assure you the latter will win.

 

[DAKA]

Certainly the Broker has not been particularly helpful in terms of giving any advice, only in terms of why I don't have a claim.

In my opinion it is time to replicate the the actual wording of the reasons why you dont have a claim here
(remove any names/policy numbers etc)

And to provide a link to the policy document , I can understand your reluctance to post it here but how about you start a new thread about someone totally divorced from this one with a link to a random policy wording.

If your claim has been rejected then it is time to take your Brokers advice and start the complaints process (at the same time as asking jfm and his team to look for chinks in the armour).

 

[Dave_Snelson]

Seahope, just as a matter of interest -

- how come the HM or marina bods didn't notice something odd about your boat before it went down? Surely, it didn't sink in just 60 seconds? In my previous reply, I stated that our HM (gawd bless 'im) spotted mine and informed straight off. It was a few hours before I could get to it, but get to it I did!

 

[cem]

i should also clarify that the broker i use for my insurance is a 1 man operation how has a franchise and is directly across the road form my office (so i can get him pretty quick if he trys to squirm)

 

[longjohnsilver]

Certainly the Broker has not been particularly helpful in terms of giving any advice, only in terms of why I don't have a claim. They actually produce the policy booklet which explains the complaints procedure. First esclation would be to their Director of Customer Service cc'd to the relative underwriting insurance companies point of contact. Then, once that process has completed if no positive outcome first escalation would be to the Insurance Ombudsman.

Please listen to what jfm says, the broker is not the person/organisation to be talking to, it's your insurer. The broker is only an intermediary and will have no real influence on any claim you make.

 

[titanic]

I think a scan of the policy document sent to JFM would be a sound idea. There is an offer of help here which most people in this situation would not have a hope in hell of being offered. I wish you well and hope this can be resolved in your favour.

 

[BrendanS]

a team of 3 that I can select from this forum, and I assure you the latter will win.

As a pure matter of interest, who would you select?

 

[Seahope]

I think a scan of the policy document sent to JFM would be a sound idea. There is an offer of help here which most people in this situation would not have a hope in hell of being offered. I wish you well and hope this can be resolved in your favour.

That I fully understand and am still amazed by the quality and helpfulness of people on this Forum. It makes me proud to be a Formite

 

[petem]

Sounds like some kind of mby 'A Team'! I think Observer would be on it.

 

[petem]

Also think this will need to go offline soon. Tactics play an important role and you wouldn't want to show your hand.

 

[Seahope]

Bad news - but not unexpected

All,

The insurer finally received the report from a metallurgist they commissioned. They have confirmed their view that the water ingress on my boat was caused by corrosion and therefore they are not able to assist me financially as my policy excludes any damage due to corrosion.

Obviously, they have not shared the report with me, but I have just asked for a copy.

It goes without saying that I disagree with this conclusion that they are not liable and now have to battle with them to change their minds. There are also a few urgent invoices I need to pay so a bit more belt squeezing is necessary Just as well we don’t entertain much as a bread and water diet quickly gets boring

JFM has been very responsive and helpful in reading my policy, the letters from the insurer and reviewing and advising me on my responses to them. How he manages to find the unpaid time for me knowing how busy he must me amazes me. The old adage of if you want something doing give it to someone busy seems to be true here

JFM thanks for your time so far I'm glad I have you on my side now this has become more serious.

I have been looking for hidden piggy-banks to fund the repair work to the engines, which are now my top priority. Thankfully, I did find one last week. Plundering it will delay my retirement by a couple more years. I am not saying I don't enjoy my work, but I was just starting to think about the possibility of having freedom of choice again as being a mid-term aspiration.

I do have estimates for the bulk of the repair work and I seriously hope that costs do not diverge too far from these.

In terms of the stark economics I believe that the least cost option is to repair the boat assuming that the costs do not escalate once the work starts. I must say this risk does worry me a lot as a ¾ repaired boat is not much use to anyone. I expect plenty more grey hairs by the time this is all over. I wouldn't mind a bit of loss of appetite

 

[petem]

I wouldn't regard this is a setback. This response was entirely predictable and at least it means that you can move things along now and hopefully get a positive resolution.

Pete

 

[Firefly625]

Seahope, I still feel for you massively and sincerely wish you well with your fight. As has been said, now it really starts. jfm has constantly amazed me by his knowledge and willingness to give his expert assistance to us when called for... as you say, this forum community is a genuine benefit to belong...