Price of new boats

[eddystone]

Whilst at the boat show thought I'd look at what similar size new boat would be like if I wanted to move from 90% maintenance and 10% sailing to the opposite and could free up funds (I can't); the Sun Odyssey 319 seems to (almost) fit the bill, rather than Hanse 315 but last time I was at the show 2 years ago, on the water prices with requisite equipment were, I seem to remember under £100K for the Hanse. The one on the ponton was £133K and the Janneau, had a sticker price for "just add water" of £126K - but add cabin heater, track for self tacker (one on the pontoon just had blank moulding), dyneema halyards, sail upgrade and downwind sail and would be more like £140K - this is surely more than pond/euro rate changes over last 2 years?

 

[eddystone]

BTW I noticed neither the Janneau or the Hanse had any hard point for attaching jackstays or in the cockpit for lifelines! Are these just designed for lake sailing?

 

[[70521]]

Every boat is a compromise, they will be compromising on price to get the ticket price something that get people looking then add the extras.

A bit like a car for £250 a month BUT limited to 10,000 miles per year. Ideal for somebody in a city but hopeless for a family in the country.

 

[Tranona]

Whilst at the boat show thought I'd look at what similar size new boat would be like if I wanted to move from 90% maintenance and 10% sailing to the opposite and could free up funds (I can't); the Sun Odyssey 319 seems to (almost) fit the bill, rather than Hanse 315 but last time I was at the show 2 years ago, on the water prices with requisite equipment were, I seem to remember under £100K for the Hanse. The one on the ponton was £133K and the Janneau, had a sticker price for "just add water" of £126K - but add cabin heater, track for self tacker (one on the pontoon just had blank moulding), dyneema halyards, sail upgrade and downwind sail and would be more like £140K - this is surely more than pond/euro rate changes over last 2 years?

You are right. I bought a new Bavaria 33 in 2015 and with a very high spec (much higher than the boats you were looking at) came to just round £100k. Similar spec now would be close to £130k.

So about half of increase is currency related (although the relationship is not as simplistic as just comparing £/euro rates) and the rest is a combination of inflation and a desire to try and sell these boats at a price that exceeds cost. You also have to remember that list prices are only a basis for negotiation and the end price can be as much as 10-15% lower depending on how keen the seller is - or more likely how desperate the factory is to shift stock or fill the production line.

The number of boats under 36' that are attractive for UK use has shrunk significantly in the past few years and sales of what is available have been low as you can see from the lack of such boats less than 10 years old on the market. Gone are the days when the big 3 (as it was then) were selling literally hundreds each year (think Bavaria 32/34/36, Beneteau 311/323/343/351, Jeanneau SO 32/33/35) in the 2000-2007 period. There was also a wide range of more sporty boats such as the Elan 333, Firsts, Sun Fasts and the smaller Hanses all of which seem to have slipped out of sight.

As to jackstays, remember most buyers will never have to leave the cockpit for purposes of operating the boat except maybe to find a new place to sunbathe. Apart from anchoring I have only had to leave the cockpit when under way once since I have had the boat and that was to deal with the in mast furling line which had jumped off the drum at the mast. Now I know how to prevent that, hope I won't have to do it again. However I do have jackstays that run from the forward cleat to the backstay anchor plate. Had similar on my previous 37. I thought a lifeline attachment point was a requirement, located close to the companionway. My boat there also has two substantial hoops on the cockpit table/steering binnacle that can be used for lifeline anchor points.

 

[johnalison]

Not fitting lifeline points sounds like a skimp too far to me. Back in 2000 my HR came with one and I think I paid extra for an additional one aft. I don't have dedicated jackstay points but other fittings serve the purpose well enough.

I think that it is inevitable that after a long period with prices hardly rising, presumably due to streamlined production, that we now have a period of boat inflation. In real terms, they still represent reasonable value, if hardly an investment.

 

[Bobc]

Don't forget that resin is oil-based and oil has gone from $20 a barrel to $70 is the last couple of years.

Other input costs have also risen (aluminium, stainless steel, timber, etc.).

 

[eddystone]

Don't forget that resin is oil-based and oil has gone from $20 a barrel to $70 is the last couple of years.

Other input costs have also risen (aluminium, stainless steel, timber, etc.).

Quite so but interesting that rising oil costs don't affect price of things like gelcoat mix, probably because the mark up on these packs is so high the raw material cost is tiny

 

[[163233]]

As to jackstays, remember most buyers will never have to leave the cockpit for purposes of operating the boat except maybe to find a new place to sunbathe.

Might be true, but can they really claim cat A - Ocean with no jackstays?

 

[Deleted member 36384]

The trick is to buy one of these yachts as first second hand owner from a retiree who bought new.

I thought HR was very overpriced compared to Hanse and X Yachts, both of which I liked a lot. Delher were disappointing.

All the salesmen explained price very well. You can fit the extras yourself for significantly less than factory fits. I don’t see the point in that if buying new.

I enjoyed SIBs.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

Might be true, but can they really claim cat A - Ocean with no jackstays?

One of the models, can’t remember which, had no coach roof handholds, almost flush coach roof. However, everything was cockpit controlled.

 

[Tranona]

Might be true, but can they really claim cat A - Ocean with no jackstays?

AFAIK not a requirement for Cat A.

There is a difference between what is required by the RCD and what a skipper may feel is prudent in many areas of boat equipment.

 

[Tranona]

The trick is to buy one of these yachts as first second hand owner from a retiree who bought new.

All the salesmen explained price very well. You can fit the extras yourself for significantly less than factory fits. I don’t see the point in that if buying new.

I enjoyed SIBs.

You are right. Whoever buys my boat will get a good deal, but then will not have the pleasure of N years of trouble free sailing in a boat of my choice that I shall hopefully have. Look at the other thread on replacements on old boats (and your own experience) and suspect you might agree that once you have paid the premium up front, over time the total cost is very little different. Similar with my 3 now 14/15 year old cars bought new.

Not to say you cannot go sailing more cheaply if you buy an old boat and just use it without replacing anything that is not essential. Just not the same as having a boat in good condition and trying to keep it at a high standard.

Don't agree it is cheaper to add things on a new boat - at least in my experience. Just about all the "extras" such as electronics, windlass, shorepower, bow thruster, entertainment kit etc were priced at much the same as the retail price of the parts. So having them factory fit is a no brainer. Of course there is a downside that your choice is limited and you might have to accept "bundles" that include things you don't need. This is not true of all builders and a look down the extensive extras list on an HR for example will show some eye popping markups on most extra equipment.

My only real beef was that there was no allowance for not taking the standard sails and the optional ones were priced above a comparable cost from a sailmaker.

 

[pvb]

You can fit the extras yourself for significantly less than factory fits. I don’t see the point in that if buying new.

I agree it's easier to get stuff factory fitted and, as Tranona has said, some manufacturers don't price extras extortionately. One advantage of factory fitting is that the wiring and plumbing will be done professionally; something you can't often get when dealers fit stuff. When I bought my Cruiser 37 in 2014, the only extra I had dealer-fitted was the Webasto heating, because the factory-fit heating apparently didn't have an outlet in the heads. However, I subsequently discovered that the radar, which I'd specified to be factory-fitted, had been rather poorly retro-fitted by the crooked Bavaria dealer to get more profit - this was discovered when I tried to trace the wiring.

 

[RupertW]

You are right. Whoever buys my boat will get a good deal, but then will not have the pleasure of N years of trouble free sailing in a boat of my choice that I shall hopefully have. Look at the other thread on replacements on old boats (and your own experience) and suspect you might agree that once you have paid the premium up front, over time the total cost is very little different. Similar with my 3 now 14/15 year old cars bought new.

Not to say you cannot go sailing more cheaply if you buy an old boat and just use it without replacing anything that is not essential. Just not the same as having a boat in good condition and trying to keep it at a high standard.

Don't agree it is cheaper to add things on a new boat - at least in my experience. Just about all the "extras" such as electronics, windlass, shorepower, bow thruster, entertainment kit etc were priced at much the same as the retail price of the parts. So having them factory fit is a no brainer. Of course there is a downside that your choice is limited and you might have to accept "bundles" that include things you don't need. This is not true of all builders and a look down the extensive extras list on an HR for example will show some eye popping markups on most extra equipment.

My only real beef was that there was no allowance for not taking the standard sails and the optional ones were priced above a comparable cost from a sailmaker.

Interesting, but others say that the first year (or two) is all about snagging issues and getting them resolved plus adding the bits which are actually useful for sailing, so trouble free sailing is more years 3-8, then things start wearing out.

But it's all theoretical to me as the boats I've bought have been 11-28 years old as I'm more into a project as long as the boat can sail and motors ok from the start.

 

[pvb]

Interesting, but others say that the first year (or two) is all about snagging issues and getting them resolved

Most buyers of mainstream boats will say that there are minimal snagging issues these days - the boats are factory-built to high standards.

 

[Tranona]

Interesting, but others say that the first year (or two) is all about snagging issues and getting them resolved plus adding the bits which are actually useful for sailing, so trouble free sailing is more years 3-8, then things start wearing out.

Apart from a software issue with the Garmin gear I have had no snagging issues. Maybe not everybody's experience, but most of the issues I have heard about arise either from dealer fit items or from boats that are built "by hand", which also means usually more complexity.

As an example I observed building of Southerlies in their heyday and you could see potential failure points being "built in" because everything was hand fitted and not planned as they were forever changing things and offering semi custom fit out. Compare this with the mass builders who work out everything in advance and limit the range of options - just like mass car builders. Then they build literally hundreds to the same basic design. A good dealer does a thorough commissioning and snagging as the last thing he wants is to do remedial work when the boats are often far from his base.

Both my new Bavarias (in 2001 and 2015) were snag free and the older one pretty trouble free throughout its hard life.

Worth looking at the similar thread running on the MOBO forum where you will see most of the snagging relates to complex domestic gear rather than the basic structure and engineering of the boat.

 

[BelleSerene]

Whilst at the boat show thought I'd look at what similar size new boat would be like if I wanted to move from 90% maintenance and 10% sailing to the opposite and could free up funds (I can't)

If you were spending that much time on maintenance, your boat was far from new. And gorgeous too, I'm sure.

But in that case, does it seem reasonable to compare with a brand new boat? Surely you should compare with a reasonably recent second-hand boat? In fact, once a boat is sailed in a bit by your preceding owner, then apart from a bit of personalisation, maintenance costs should fall.

In which case, many more options are open to you than the models you'll find at a show.

 

[eddystone]

If you were spending that much time on maintenance, your boat was far from new. And gorgeous too, I'm sure.

But in that case, does it seem reasonable to compare with a brand new boat? Surely you should compare with a reasonably recent second-hand boat? In fact, once a boat is sailed in a bit by your preceding owner, then apart from a bit of personalisation, maintenance costs should fall.

In which case, many more options are open to you than the models you'll find at a show.

Well yes theoretically with a boat say 3-5 years old one wouldn't expect to have to do anything beyond annual maintenance routines for at least 5 years but I don't think many people sell after such a short time and is the discount to new really that significant?

 

[Tranona]

Well yes theoretically with a boat say 3-5 years old one wouldn't expect to have to do anything beyond annual maintenance routines for at least 5 years but I don't think many people sell after such a short time and is the discount to new really that significant?

Think you are right - very few under 3 year old boats on the market, unlike 10 - 15 years ago when firstly the number of boats sold was far higher and demand such that prices of such boats were higher. Suspect now most new buyers are looking to longer term ownership.

The first 2 year's loss in value is around 15-20%, roughly the cost of delivering and commissioning. However because of the price inflation over the last couple of years expect that to probably fall. The higher price of new boats may limit the market and lead to a firming of prices of nearly new boats.

All guesswork though really as there is little concrete evidence to establish real prices in what economists call a "thin" market.

 

[[163233]]

AFAIK not a requirement for Cat A.

There is a difference between what is required by the RCD and what a skipper may feel is prudent in many areas of boat equipment.

That does fit with the view that the RCD is more about protectionism than safety.