D
Prestige 500 fly IPS 600 at Displacement speed
- Thread starter paulrackstraw
- Start date
Portofino
Well-Known Member
Correct it was scary on several levels .
- The vis , when you are in a trough you can’t see to port or stb and we were crossing a busy Med shipping / ferry lane between Elba - Corsica .
- water breaking , filled the cockpit every time , so the scuppers were well excerised .
- instruments / dash , we had to protect it by putting the cover on .So the only nav reference was the actually the wave Dir .
With the odd peak under the cover at the instruments.
- broaching / capsize risk , if we lost power I worried we would tip over if we lost the dynamic fwd stability effect of planing
On the other hand it’s about a good 2hrs or less to cross to be shelter of the cliff of N Corsica
We had a Del skipper a lad in his twenties as it happens worked for the broker ( mostly an Itama Broker ) .
Apart from ships nobody else out .
We used the engines to lay the wet clothes to dry that evening .Forgot to rinse the salt water off so they were like cardboard next day
The only pic I dared to risk soaking my phone on is this .Does not really do it justice but illustrates the constant waves breaking over the port beam .
It’s true there no such thing as waterproof sailing garments , water gets up your cuffs down your neck etc etc
MapisM
Well-Known Member
I know I'll regret saying this, but do you seriously hope that anyone with just the slightest boating experience can believe that a wake trail remains flat and straight like that for hundreds of meters behind the boat in F8 - i.e. with sustained 5m waves, and up to 7m+ peaks?
REALLY?
Nigelpickin
Well-Known Member
You know that questioning a mans account of the Beaufort conditions is akin to questioning how big the fish that got away really was.....
Not sure if Porto has more balls for being out in a force 8 in a speed boat or for posting that picture as evidence!
Whitelighter
Well-Known Member
You are forgetting he was in an Itama.
Hewn out of solid dark matter and encompassing the power of Neptune’s fist there is no sea it can’t flatten, no storm and can’t cruise through at 30 knots. Just because your stupid boat would have been blown asunder remember they are not all the same. Nay, even normal physics doesn’t apply to an Itama, as even though they be just a plastic V Hull, they also be not...
Bajansailor
Well-Known Member
Is the Itama the motor boat equivalent of the Anderson 22 in the sailing world?
Portofino
Well-Known Member
Wake trail is less than 2 boat lengths. The other stuff off to the R hs of the pic are a few white horses .We are not turning we are running straight in fact slightly to port the sea is moving us to stb in a northern Dir .
Did not want to miss N Corsica .
Pics never do sea state justice I did warn you all .
We drove up diagonally up the side of the slopes , hovered on top then dropped down the other side .
Wave height was bigger than the boat ,for bigger we just disappeared blind into throughs held it’s there conscious if stayed in a trough too long we were constantly being swept N .
So we had to ride up ,sit on top and then drop into the next one on the port side .
Fortunately you are never really out of land sight twixt Elba / Corsica so ( big cliff / mountains etc ) so it was easy to see and mitigate the XTE .
Sorry it’s a duff pic lads . But as you see the waves braking over the port side constantly filling the cockpit .
That’s a tail end at the stern the ones on the bow ,mid sections were bigger .
I recall my mate actually tied himself to the table pedestal.
The skipper ( we were up before dawn ) hence the poor light as we slipped in darkness from Punta Ala , did do a passage planner thingy on his device.
Options stay in port , run down wind head N hugging the IT mainland round to Liguria.
Or nip W for bit , passing through to better seas between Corsica and Cannes .
The storm was passing up the sea between Sardinia / Corsica and heading NE into the corner of the Liguria.
Think that guy who lost his squadron 58 off a ship somewhere in that sea and think Rapillo storms last Nov .
My Del skipper was from Sardinia, based in Roma he shuttles boats across those waters for a living .
Knows the local trends / weather patterns .
Wind whips up between IT mainland and the big islands ,it’s funnelled by the Alps as they drop into to the sea @ Menton and heads across the IT mainland over Piedmont often bashing Portofino / Rapillo in the NE corner of Liguria.
Portofino is a natural protective inlet for a reason .This wind can’t hit it as it’s entrance is E , it’s totally sheltered .
It was his call .
MapisM
Well-Known Member
PF, you are really putting me in trouble, because I don't know where to start.
But I feel obliged to at least try to keep the amount of wrong information this forum is plagued with lately within reasonable limits.
To start with, two days ago I saw the Alps from an airplane, and I can confirm that they still are where the maps say they are.
So, don't worry folks, there's no way a southern wind in the Med can be funneled through the Alps, just in case anyone is wondering.
The storm you mentioned (which was last Oct btw, not Nov) is a good example of that, blowing straight from southern Italy with a fetch of several hundreds on Nm. And on top wiping away a Sq58 from the deck of a ship and destroying Porto Carlo Riva, it also forced 600 feet ferries connecting Sardinia with mainland to stay put.
I hope you are not suggesting that the conditions of your crossing were remotely comparable, because that would be beyond a joke.
It's interesting to read that your mate tied himself to the table pedestal, after you dismissed what I told in Scala thread about P boats REALLY meant for high speed in rough conditions (i.e., NOT Itamas), which are equipped with suspension seats and 4pt harness.
Regardless, that's not my idea of boating for pleasure, and I suspect to be in good company on this.
Last but not least, let's talk of your F8 pic.
Firstly, if what can be seen in the right side is what you call a breaking wave, well, obviously you've ever seen a wave breaking over the deck, because that's just spray, no matter how much of it (cue: the colour).
Many years ago, I was caught in a head sea with no chances to escape, and for a good couple of hours I had at least one out of 4 or 5 waves flooding the deck with green water, even at 6kts or so. Trust me, I would have been quite happy if the type of water breaking onboard were remotely comparable to what can be seen in your pic - and it was just a F6 sea, albeit strengthening to F7.
No pics, sorry - that was the very last of my thoughts.
But we neither had to tie ourselves anywhere, nor we reached our destination completely soaked, and forgive me if to me this is preferable to being able to keep bashing the waves at P speed.
Secondly, 2 boat lengths of wake trial?!? In your memories, maybe.
Bad as it is, your pic tells a totally different story. The visible trail stretches almost to the horizon, and even if it's impossible to tell exactly its length, I have zero doubts that it takes three digits (in meters, obviously) to measure it.
Anyway, I'll tell you what: let's leave to anyone reading this the freedom to draw their own conclusions.
What I can provide is a bit of comparison, with a video I already posted in the past.
The 20 seconds or so starting from 0:30 show how the trail looks like, in a F5 following sea.
Mind, such irregular trail was left by a boat whose track was straight as an arrow, with the a/p never moving the rudders by more than a few degrees either side, and I was helding the mobile with one hand, just to give an idea of the stability.
Oh, and the bow waves that you see in the video are still what I would call spray - i.e. laughable, in comparison to the green water I previously mentioned.
Obviously, I'm not expecting you to agree with anything I'm saying.
But you'd better not expect us to believe in fairy tales, either.
But I feel obliged to at least try to keep the amount of wrong information this forum is plagued with lately within reasonable limits.
To start with, two days ago I saw the Alps from an airplane, and I can confirm that they still are where the maps say they are.
So, don't worry folks, there's no way a southern wind in the Med can be funneled through the Alps, just in case anyone is wondering.
The storm you mentioned (which was last Oct btw, not Nov) is a good example of that, blowing straight from southern Italy with a fetch of several hundreds on Nm. And on top wiping away a Sq58 from the deck of a ship and destroying Porto Carlo Riva, it also forced 600 feet ferries connecting Sardinia with mainland to stay put.
I hope you are not suggesting that the conditions of your crossing were remotely comparable, because that would be beyond a joke.
It's interesting to read that your mate tied himself to the table pedestal, after you dismissed what I told in Scala thread about P boats REALLY meant for high speed in rough conditions (i.e., NOT Itamas), which are equipped with suspension seats and 4pt harness.
Regardless, that's not my idea of boating for pleasure, and I suspect to be in good company on this.
Last but not least, let's talk of your F8 pic.
Firstly, if what can be seen in the right side is what you call a breaking wave, well, obviously you've ever seen a wave breaking over the deck, because that's just spray, no matter how much of it (cue: the colour).
Many years ago, I was caught in a head sea with no chances to escape, and for a good couple of hours I had at least one out of 4 or 5 waves flooding the deck with green water, even at 6kts or so. Trust me, I would have been quite happy if the type of water breaking onboard were remotely comparable to what can be seen in your pic - and it was just a F6 sea, albeit strengthening to F7.
No pics, sorry - that was the very last of my thoughts.
But we neither had to tie ourselves anywhere, nor we reached our destination completely soaked, and forgive me if to me this is preferable to being able to keep bashing the waves at P speed.
Secondly, 2 boat lengths of wake trial?!? In your memories, maybe.
Bad as it is, your pic tells a totally different story. The visible trail stretches almost to the horizon, and even if it's impossible to tell exactly its length, I have zero doubts that it takes three digits (in meters, obviously) to measure it.
Anyway, I'll tell you what: let's leave to anyone reading this the freedom to draw their own conclusions.
What I can provide is a bit of comparison, with a video I already posted in the past.
The 20 seconds or so starting from 0:30 show how the trail looks like, in a F5 following sea.
Mind, such irregular trail was left by a boat whose track was straight as an arrow, with the a/p never moving the rudders by more than a few degrees either side, and I was helding the mobile with one hand, just to give an idea of the stability.
Oh, and the bow waves that you see in the video are still what I would call spray - i.e. laughable, in comparison to the green water I previously mentioned.
Obviously, I'm not expecting you to agree with anything I'm saying.
But you'd better not expect us to believe in fairy tales, either.
MapisM
Well-Known Member
Agreed wholeheartedly. This is something I must concede to PF.
stelican
Well-Known Member
Oh no don't mention the Anderson 22 our neighbour has one in the gardenIs the Itama the motor boat equivalent of the Anderson 22 in the sailing world?
Portofino
Well-Known Member
MapishM
You are just arguing for arguments sake .
That pic as I repeat is not a good one or truly represented the conditions. Understandably the phone is pointing backwards quickly while I thought it “ safe “ to risk soaking it .
That’s a take end spray of wave that basically flooded the cockpit .Remember we are running @26 knots and they are hitting / breaking over the beam .Indeed due to the speed I suspect it actually help decrease the inflow mostly .
As said unfortunately not illustrated we disappeared in troughs. Big troughs though .No AP on as the skipper needed to more or less stay parallel to the massive waves , and when appropriate turn to port and diagonally ride up a wave to drop into the next trough or sit it on top of peak .
I’d say the distance between them was estimate about 3 boat L so 45 M or so and the H way over the boat H , Ok it’s a low boat but est 5/7 M .
The tops white horses and spray everywhere.
Your F5 vid is a nothing wave H wise btw in my book .A walk in the park .Again filming does not really capture it .But your boat is not disappearing between the wave you can see out .
It got a lot worse than that pic .
Mapish you miss understood the table tying thing , it’s not comfort no need for silly suspension seats as the ride was soft it was to prevent being washed overboard by a even bigger wave than we were getting coming in .
There was no “ wave bashing “ ad you say remember we are running parallel to the wave s in the valleys and on the ridges .Its just they start to break / curl on the crests and those would inadvertently tip / spill over the cockpit side glass or off the bow 1/4 ( if we steered it too for to port attempting to ride up a hill ) and basically fill the cockpit up soaking us in the meantime .No crashing ,no banging as said the issue nav wise was XTE , we had to keep mounting the crests as opposed to sit in one trough otherwise we would just be swept N .The huge sea as said brought on from the fetch by wind funnelled between the big islands and mainland being sucked into that land gap on Liguaria .
Unlike a sail boat we did not have harness or lines to clip on .
The guy a friend is a very experienced ocean yacht racer , you know Cape Town to Sydney , southern ocean that kinda stuff.
He has said for 10 days with a crew member in a body bag in the lazerette after eventually picking the body out of the sea in a mob in the southern ocean .Washed overboard .So I hope you can appreciate his personal what sounds like heightened awareness of washing over board .
For the OP the Alps drop into the sea at a Menton and the wind is often greater to the E more so as you approach the corner in Liguria, It’s often a lot more windy over there compared to W of Menton .When it does blow up its often from the S heading N .So if you where to hug that bit of coast when you turn S at the inside corner of the NE Liguria it’s on the nose as you start to head head down the side of Italy . Hugging the land does not really help as the long fetch and relative shallow water makes the wave amplitude shorter and steeper .
A the Cinque Terra ( sp ? ) stretch after Rapillo that’s the worse part in my experience. Those tall cliffs and summer hot land make for local winds .Wave Dir is all over the place .
Feels like a long stretch of no proper safe havens so once committed you have to do it .
As said the macro geography seems to funnel air between the Alps on the L and the central Italian Apenines on the R .
The Alps are a huge crescent , Think 1/ 2 moon .One tip at Menton the outer in Austria .
Alternatively nip across to N Corsica about 100 miles form anywhere on the Cote d Azur .
It can be calm and predictable with a high degree of accuracy with weather apps etc .The NE corner of Liguria as said in my experience ( we go every year btw ) well weather apps are useless it’s so unpredictable wind / sea state wise .
It’s shorter thus less fuel as well crossing to Corsica .
Don’t know how you feel being out of sight of land ?
Once you sight Corsica the N coast is worth a visit in its own right pretty places , Elba is in visual , again pretty place and from there you can hug the coast all the way down Italy .Weather / wind patterns are predictable from a passage planning POV .No nasty surprises.
You are just arguing for arguments sake .
That pic as I repeat is not a good one or truly represented the conditions. Understandably the phone is pointing backwards quickly while I thought it “ safe “ to risk soaking it .
That’s a take end spray of wave that basically flooded the cockpit .Remember we are running @26 knots and they are hitting / breaking over the beam .Indeed due to the speed I suspect it actually help decrease the inflow mostly .
As said unfortunately not illustrated we disappeared in troughs. Big troughs though .No AP on as the skipper needed to more or less stay parallel to the massive waves , and when appropriate turn to port and diagonally ride up a wave to drop into the next trough or sit it on top of peak .
I’d say the distance between them was estimate about 3 boat L so 45 M or so and the H way over the boat H , Ok it’s a low boat but est 5/7 M .
The tops white horses and spray everywhere.
Your F5 vid is a nothing wave H wise btw in my book .A walk in the park .Again filming does not really capture it .But your boat is not disappearing between the wave you can see out .
It got a lot worse than that pic .
Mapish you miss understood the table tying thing , it’s not comfort no need for silly suspension seats as the ride was soft it was to prevent being washed overboard by a even bigger wave than we were getting coming in .
There was no “ wave bashing “ ad you say remember we are running parallel to the wave s in the valleys and on the ridges .Its just they start to break / curl on the crests and those would inadvertently tip / spill over the cockpit side glass or off the bow 1/4 ( if we steered it too for to port attempting to ride up a hill ) and basically fill the cockpit up soaking us in the meantime .No crashing ,no banging as said the issue nav wise was XTE , we had to keep mounting the crests as opposed to sit in one trough otherwise we would just be swept N .The huge sea as said brought on from the fetch by wind funnelled between the big islands and mainland being sucked into that land gap on Liguaria .
Unlike a sail boat we did not have harness or lines to clip on .
The guy a friend is a very experienced ocean yacht racer , you know Cape Town to Sydney , southern ocean that kinda stuff.
He has said for 10 days with a crew member in a body bag in the lazerette after eventually picking the body out of the sea in a mob in the southern ocean .Washed overboard .So I hope you can appreciate his personal what sounds like heightened awareness of washing over board .
For the OP the Alps drop into the sea at a Menton and the wind is often greater to the E more so as you approach the corner in Liguria, It’s often a lot more windy over there compared to W of Menton .When it does blow up its often from the S heading N .So if you where to hug that bit of coast when you turn S at the inside corner of the NE Liguria it’s on the nose as you start to head head down the side of Italy . Hugging the land does not really help as the long fetch and relative shallow water makes the wave amplitude shorter and steeper .
A the Cinque Terra ( sp ? ) stretch after Rapillo that’s the worse part in my experience. Those tall cliffs and summer hot land make for local winds .Wave Dir is all over the place .
Feels like a long stretch of no proper safe havens so once committed you have to do it .
As said the macro geography seems to funnel air between the Alps on the L and the central Italian Apenines on the R .
The Alps are a huge crescent , Think 1/ 2 moon .One tip at Menton the outer in Austria .
Alternatively nip across to N Corsica about 100 miles form anywhere on the Cote d Azur .
It can be calm and predictable with a high degree of accuracy with weather apps etc .The NE corner of Liguria as said in my experience ( we go every year btw ) well weather apps are useless it’s so unpredictable wind / sea state wise .
It’s shorter thus less fuel as well crossing to Corsica .
Don’t know how you feel being out of sight of land ?
Once you sight Corsica the N coast is worth a visit in its own right pretty places , Elba is in visual , again pretty place and from there you can hug the coast all the way down Italy .Weather / wind patterns are predictable from a passage planning POV .No nasty surprises.
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MapisM
Well-Known Member
My point exactly: how come the trail in your pic is flatter and longer?
We all know by now that your boat was blessed with Lourdes water instead of champagne upon first launch, but I still find it a tad hard to believe that she can also flatten 5 to 7m waves behind her...
Anyhow, listen, I knew from the beginning that we could have only agreed to disagree, eventually.
As I said, let's leave to anyone bored enough to keep reading our ramblings the freedom to draw their own conclusions.
Happy Easter.
Portofino
Well-Known Member
You too .
It’s was and still is a poor pic .I remember infact about a1/4 over twixt Elba/ Corse ,the worst was to come .
Remember we weren’t flattening waves , we were riding between them having to carefully choose a spot to ride diagonally up and over to port to compensate for huge XTE .We couldn’t just sit an a valley.
In fact it’s all flooding back ( scuse the pun ) the Del skipper tied himself to a Bimini pole as well .
My mate was not fussed he loved it reminded him of the southern ocean .
Just digressing kit wise we discuss life rafts , flares , AIS , and other safety kit on here on occasions , but I wonder how many cary a body bag ? To store a fatality. Certainty NA in the Med .
Nigel’s probably best to follow up on that :encouragement:
Nigelpickin
Well-Known Member
LOL - well I’ve now crossed the Atlantic 9 times by sea - 4 at the pleasure of her Majesty’s Submarine Service, 4 courtesy of the Queens Grill and once as a semi competent sailor in my plastic tubs - no body bags used thus far....I would bet, pound to a pinch of salt, that the Cunard morgue is by far the busiest...
Anyway, rough out on the ICW this morning as we left Jacksonville in gale conditions - picture does not really show it so I feel your pain Porto
Bouba
Well-Known Member
How do the Americans get that checker board pattern on their sea?
Nigelpickin
Well-Known Member
Glitch in the matrix?
Mr Googler
Well-Known Member
Nigelpickin
Well-Known Member
thisisnotmyfirstrodeo
New Member
Hi Paulrackstraw, I have found some information on this:
RPM Speed Range (nm)
1000 6.4 1387
1500 9.0 557
2000 11 325
2200 12.4 293
2400 14.5 286
2600 16.7 262
2800 19 257
3000 21.5 247
3200 24.10 241
3400 26 232
3570 28 218
Fuel tanks are 2 x 650l (1300l) so can work out when you'll need to fuel up.
I'd work out where I wanted to go on the way down, work out how long I want to be on the boat, allow for weather and conditions and plan a speed accordingly.
RPM Speed Range (nm)
1000 6.4 1387
1500 9.0 557
2000 11 325
2200 12.4 293
2400 14.5 286
2600 16.7 262
2800 19 257
3000 21.5 247
3200 24.10 241
3400 26 232
3570 28 218
Fuel tanks are 2 x 650l (1300l) so can work out when you'll need to fuel up.
I'd work out where I wanted to go on the way down, work out how long I want to be on the boat, allow for weather and conditions and plan a speed accordingly.