Practical boat speed and pointing to wind

[William_H]

I think the answer to OP question regarding pointing ability and speed is to look at the performance of the type being considered and the club handicaps based on actual racing performance. Racing does depnd to a huge degree on poinitng ability and speed when doing so. It does seem to me that things that detract from pointing ability and speed when pointing are partly furled jibs, bilge keels and low aspect ratio sail plan. So a hank on or jb in a slot ona foil specially cut for the conditions will be far more efficient. A keel that has a high aspect ratio (deep) with a clean keel root to hull (like a dinghy) is best and lastly a fractional rig with smaller jib will work best. Don't forget you will need a folding prop.
I like to race my little boat and so do appreciate pointing ability and yes beating well to windward is one of the little joys of sailing. Not so good in the small boat in choppy water and no you can never compete with the bigger boats with their higher masts reaching up into faster air and better ability to handle waves on the bow. good luck olewill

 

[winsbury]

The keels on Pegasus spread out quite a lot vertically certainly compared to some hulls Ive seen where the keels are virtually parallel shapeless slabs. Ours are a good cast iron moulded in an aerofoil shape and toed in, from what I understand ( not a lot ) about keel design I think these factors contribute to it being pretty good for a bilge keeler.

I think the angle of the keels contriubutes to the windward one coming up earlier than on some other designs though usually we try to reef well before we are consistently heeling at 20+ degrees.

The comment about weight in the bow is interesting; we tend to store quite a lot of stuff up front so its not falling about in the main cabin while we sail; in a dinghy a bit of weight in the front always seemed to improve pointing so is this different on a yacht ?

Pegasus is also a masthead rig with a high aspect mainsail on a very short boom and extremely large genoa , possibly 140/150%. As a result furling the genoa tends to happen in most wind conditions above F3 to maintain steering balance; perhaps this is partly the issue too. All dual sail the dingies Ive sailed have been fractional rigged; is this something we should be looking for in the next yacht too ?

 

[mrming]

The keels on Pegasus spread out quite a lot vertically certainly compared to some hulls Ive seen where the keels are virtually parallel shapeless slabs. Ours are a good cast iron moulded in an aerofoil shape and toed in, from what I understand ( not a lot ) about keel design I think these factors contribute to it being pretty good for a bilge keeler.

I think the angle of the keels contriubutes to the windward one coming up earlier than on some other designs though usually we try to reef well before we are consistently heeling at 20+ degrees.

The comment about weight in the bow is interesting; we tend to store quite a lot of stuff up front so its not falling about in the main cabin while we sail; in a dinghy a bit of weight in the front always seemed to improve pointing so is this different on a yacht ?

Pegasus is also a masthead rig with a high aspect mainsail on a very short boom and extremely large genoa , possibly 140/150%. As a result furling the genoa tends to happen in most wind conditions above F3 to maintain steering balance; perhaps this is partly the issue too. All dual sail the dingies Ive sailed have been fractional rigged; is this something we should be looking for in the next yacht too ?

If you're sailing in waves, any weight should be over the keel wherever possible to avoid hobby-horsing. If it's flat water then just make sure the boat is level on her lines.

A furled genoa is not going to point well full stop. You either need an unfurled roller headsail in good condition, or a hanked on / foiled on sail cut to the correct size for the conditions. I find a fractional rig is more flexible in this regard as you can hoist a blade jib which is good for the majority of the wind range and then reef your main if necessary. The downside is it's not so effective poling out a blade downwind so I tend to fly a kite if crew / conditions allow.

I also come from a dinghy sailing background and personally I prefer a fractional rig as there's a lot you can do to de-power the main by bending the mast before you have to consider reefing. It's a more flexible sail plain in my opinion, and the smaller jibs are easier to tack.

 

[lw395]

If you're sailing in waves, any weight should be over the keel wherever possible to avoid hobby-horsing. If it's flat water then just make sure the boat is level on her lines.

A furled genoa is not going to point well full stop. You either need an unfurled roller headsail in good condition, or a hanked on / foiled on sail cut to the correct size for the conditions. I find a fractional rig is more flexible in this regard as you can hoist a blade jib which is good for the majority of the wind range and then reef your main if necessary. The downside is it's not so effective poling out a blade downwind so I tend to fly a kite if crew / conditions allow.

I also come from a dinghy sailing background and personally I prefer a fractional rig as there's a lot you can do to de-power the main by bending the mast before you have to consider reefing. It's a more flexible sail plain in my opinion, and the smaller jibs are easier to tack.

There's no need for a roller-reefed, masthead rig to be anywhere near as bad as the first post suggests though.
Plenty of yachts, including some twin-keelers, go pretty reasonably with a few rolls in the genoa.
Not race-winning performance, but not dogs.

 

[simonfraser]

Recon you need to buy a trimaran for some proper speed, 6 knots )))

 

[johnalison]

There's no need for a roller-reefed, masthead rig to be anywhere near as bad as the first post suggests though.
Plenty of yachts, including some twin-keelers, go pretty reasonably with a few rolls in the genoa.
Not race-winning performance, but not dogs.

Although crack crews will appreciate a hanked-on jib, in ordinary sailing, and even some racing, a well-cut jib with a foam luff will sail very respectably, and may well make up time on boats changing jibs or sailing with less than the best sail up.

 

[winsbury]

Multihulls are definitely not my bag, they make for fantastically exciting dingies thats true but cant see the logic for bigger boats except for those that would be better off in a hotel than a boat ( my opinion only, no offense intended.)

Hobby horsing - yep thats what we do over the Chichester bar though not sure there's much we can do about it but will certainly have a rethink about weight repositioning.

 

[dave_gibsea]

I seem to spend my life beating to windward, if I didn't we wouldn't get anywhere! I would suggest you need .. a fin keel, a folding prop, a working-jib (idealy a blade or Solent jib) for windy days and a main with a firm leech (ie descent main with kicker on) to start with. I would challenge the idea that "lighter smaller craft" will be in the back rank of a club race - if you have ever been passed upwind by a J80 you would see my point. The worst culprit for poor upwind performance has to be a headsail well rolled up providing a horrid baggy, shapeless sail.

One thing with smaller boats is it does help to sit up on the rail. "Cruising chaps" prefer the shelter of a deep cockpit which I can understand that when the going gets tough but get your crew on the windward deck in anything less. Work your boat upwind through the waves, luff a little as you go up towards the crest, bear off a little as you go down the back of the wave..

 

[onesea]

According to the standard calculation our 7.1m loa displacement hull at 18.5feet lwl should max out at 5.8knots. In practice the max I have seen on the log is about 4.8 knots ( except when surfing on the run when Ive seen considerably higher for brief periods.) We can also sail approx 45 degrees to the apparent wind but its very slow, rarely more than 2.8knots; coming off to 60 degrees sees the speed increase to around 4knots max. In reality I rarely get these figures consistently unless I'm concentrating hard on helming and sail trimming. The boat is a bilge keel which I presume has some effect though when sufficiently heeled in a good F5-6 the leeward keel is near horizontal and skimming the waves so it seems to me the boat acts more like a fin keel at that point.

From what you say about your present boat you are probably trying to hard! Reef her early and keep her more upright. For allot of boats if your dipping the rail you need to reef...
Your speed may come up your leeway will go down...

As others have said think of your weight distribution midships is good but some boats like my bilge keeler benefited from keeping the weight slightly forward. Sail trim and shape is all important up wind once you crack off it helps but cruising its not as significant. Another thing is we found reefing the main first was much better depends from boat to boat but we carried full headsail it quite strong winds with well reefed main and she was well balanced on the helm. Also put your boat on a diet look at what you carry if you don't use it need it get it off. Weight again has to be pushed to windward, once you crack off its not so significant. We also used to recon on cruising speed of 4.5 knots and 3.5-4 to windward we could get 5.5 - 6 but only on good strong reaches...

As for your next boat, as I understand. If you want a windward machine I would think along the lines of an Aphrodite 101 deep keel narrow lines (it was what I was originally looking for). Form stability by beam is good once you crack off a touch but up wind it is just more to push to windward.

I made a similar step on much less budget, trident 24 to a 3/4 tonner. The 3/4 tonner on our first sail went up wind with a reefed main hardly filling quicker than the bilge keeler ever did.

We have kept with the Foil headsail in the Solent the number 3 is used nearly all the time (we can see behind it). We can normally choose a sail for the day with no need to change up or down.

 

[ifoxwell]

Personally if it was me.... and you want to put sailing ahead of comfort then just look at the NHC base numbers list. Pick out the boats that are cruisers then compare boat length to handicap. If a boats handicap suggest that it is quick for its size then its either because it planes off wind (unlikely if your looking at cruisers) or more likely its because it sails well on all points, especially upwind as proportionally more time is spent in a race going upwind.

We have a Jeanneau Sun Fast 32i which has what looks like a tough handicap for its size, but with its deep, lead footed keel its a demon upwind. We are normally racing, and often beating on the water, boats 4-6ft longer than us.

Ian

 

[lw395]

Personally if it was me.... and you want to put sailing ahead of comfort then just look at the NHC base numbers list. Pick out the boats that are cruisers then compare boat length to handicap. If a boats handicap suggest that it is quick for its size then its either because ......
Ian

Or it's a class that gets sailed well by good racing sailors?
A look at the spreads in RTIR times in 'one designs' shows the human element is crucial to boat speed.

 

[mrming]

Or it's a class that gets sailed well by good racing sailors?
A look at the spreads in RTIR times in 'one designs' shows the human element is crucial to boat speed.

There are some boats which will never do well on handicap no matter how well they are sailed. These are often lightweight downwind planing machines. The SunFast 32i is known for being a boat that can sail to it's IRC rating. You still have to sail it properly but the handicap's not working against you.

 

[seumask]

We have the bilge keel Fulmar and I can only recomend them. The helm remains well balanced when sailing in all winds and she flys upwind in a blow, admitedly we are from a dinghy racing back ground, but we don't often get beaten unless the wind is sub 8 knts by any boats which are of a similar length, and we expect to overtake most cruising boat less tha 38ft in the solent.
She does have a slight vice under engine in that the tiller get's pushed to one side if it is left unattended for more than a few seconds, resulting in the boat circling tightly. something that might not effect a wheel steered version or the fin keeled version. I understand this problem is common to the bilge keel version and is not usually an issue as if we have any distance to motor the tiller pilot works well.

 

[ifoxwell]

There are some boats which will never do well on handicap no matter how well they are sailed. These are often lightweight downwind planing machines. The SunFast 32i is known for being a boat that can sail to it's IRC rating. You still have to sail it properly but the handicap's not working against you.

And thats exactly my point. As mentioned above the strength of the fleet is also a factor but if you take our Sun Fast as a good example, great all round boat used by schools as well as teams racing so probably a fair handicap that on paper my look hars. But In practice it is just evidence that it is a well worked out boat that sails fast on all points.

Ian

 

[eagle160]

We sail a starlight 35 (and as owner's bias had already been pointed out I don't feel bad admitting if she isn't the best she's at least a close second ). In the earlier miles we were a bit disappointed by her upwind performance (4.5-5) but since realised that we had a combination of small things not helping:
Halyard not tight enough, we really pull the sail flat now (upwind.. ).
We used to reef too early now we reef only well above 20 knots true but put traveler out if wheel helm is too much. Sometimes put 1st reef in main but doesn't do too much (we have 3 reefing points).
Kicker not tight enough
back stay tensioner not tight enough.
Going off the wind a little bit more than possible.
We now tack through 100 degrees of the true wind (unless very wavy) and go at 5.5-6+knots. We will be overtaken but only by larger yachts which makes sense. Importantly we notice how often we keep going on great comfort while the awb around us will be deeply reefed or on engine.
That's one important thing to consider: comfort. Modern yachts might be faster but often lack the crew and stomach to get that performance when beating into a F6.