Powerboat and RIB magazine are campaigning for compulsory licensing

[Elessar]

I agree that compulsory licensing will not necessarily prevent similar tragedies, but compulsory USE would make a significant contribution to preventing similar accidents.


Perhaps it's time to invent a proximity device so that the driver is not physically connected to the kill-cord switch. Something about the size and shape of a watch strap, so that if it goes more than a metre or so from the controls, the engine /gearbox goes to neutral. The 'wimp' factor of having a piece of red plastic tied to the driver is then mitigated.

I suspect that legislation will be overtaken by insurance companies requiring kill-cords or neutralisers. If indeed some speedy craft are insured in the first place

Some type of deadmans handle would be good that doesn't neccessitate wearing something.

How about 3 switches so weight on the seat OR weight on the foot area OR hand on throttle (because if you're going fast enough to go weightless you should have your hand on the throttle)

 

[rbcoomer]

I'm not against a licensing scheme if I thought it would avert a tragedy like in Cornwall but not convinced it would. As mentioned elsewhere, there's the cost of implementing and policing which would be significant and probably ineffective in a case like this. Rather than throw £X00 Million at a convoluted scheme of legislation and a layer of bureaucracy/policing, perhaps if anything is to be spent, then the government would be better off funding or part-funding some form of basic safety training or education? TV adverts seem effective and used for similar H&S type issues. I'd like to think my safety procedures are quite good (including life-jackets, kill cord, VHF, flares etc) but we can always learn something new and that one thing might be that which saves a life. Perhaps like the Christmas drink-driving adverts, a spring 'be safe on the water' campaign? I don't have any qualifications myself other than VHF SRC, but I don't believe that makes me a danger as I manage the risks and pay attention to all that could go wrong - mitigating wherever possible. I am looking to do PB2 later this year - not because I feel I need to, but more because I hope to learn something useful. Even a day/half-day basic boat safety in a classroom type environment would improve awareness and would seem a more effective route to adopt than more laws, restrictions and red tape IMHO. There's lots of free safety information out there if people look and for those that don't, perhaps some more awareness? It often surprises me that some have little or no concept of factors like the range of mobile phones, tides/currents, effects of cold water or often basic geographical knowledge of the area they're in etc. People also tend to unwind when on holiday and there are inevitably going to be times when they're less alert or tired. Unless they're already in the habit of following a set procedure and doing certain checks etc this is when they'll forget - particularly when they might only use the boat a few times a year. Legislation won't change that, but education, training and raised awareness might?

 

[Vitesse]

Any scheme they come up with has to work for the majority of powerboat users. I can't see compulsory bits of tech being retrofitted to every 'qualifying' boat in the land. rbcoomber makes a good point that education would be better than compulsion. Maybe compulsory education? Even half a morning would be better than nothing. Usually the ones who need to learn are the least likely to want to, though! I don't think there's any national database of boat owners but much contact information could be collected from the harbour authorities and insurers.

The number of folks I saw last weekend in small craft and without lifejackets show how far attitudes have to shift before going as far as hooking up the cord becomes second nature. I have to admit that what happened in Padstow has made me rethink boat safety and I consider myself to be a careful boater.

Discussions like this are definitely worth having.

 

[alant]

I agree that compulsory licensing will not necessarily prevent similar tragedies, but compulsory USE would make a significant contribution to preventing similar accidents.


Perhaps it's time to invent a proximity device so that the driver is not physically connected to the kill-cord switch. Something about the size and shape of a watch strap, so that if it goes more than a metre or so from the controls, the engine /gearbox goes to neutral. The 'wimp' factor of having a piece of red plastic tied to the driver is then mitigated.

I suspect that legislation will be overtaken by insurance companies requiring kill-cords or neutralisers. If indeed some speedy craft are insured in the first place

Why?
Whats wrong with the existing kill cord system, other than the fact, that it will only work if you use it, which would be the same with any other gizmo!

 

[alant]

Waterproofing would not be difficult ( I have a waterproof iphone case that cost £12) but why does it need to be waterproof?

In your pocket - dry. Fall in - boat stops life saved. Buy another for £5 ... but waterproofing it would not be beyond the cunning chinese.... if you can waterproof and iphone - including the ability to plug in headphones and charge it ... you can waterproof a dongle.

Would it work if you were below the surface, with seawater blocking any signal, otherwise it wouldn't stop an engine!

 

[alant]

Yup you can have all the regulations you like but if there are no peak capped little Hitlers around to enforce them, they're not worth a light. Anyway, aren't we getting ahead of ourselves here? Do we know for certain that the driver wasn't attached to the kill cord or are we just assuming he wasn't? A good friend of mine drowned in the Solent a few years ago after he was thrown out of the RIB he was driving. His body was found on one side of the Solent with the kill cord attached to his wrist and the RIB was found on the other side so kill cords are not infallible. I do agree with Whitelighter also; maybe it's time to think about something more sophisticated than a kill cord; industry has used simple proximity and other safety devices for years. Even my cheapo ride-on mower cuts out if the driver's weight is removed from the seat

Was it confirmed, that the other end was actually attached to the boat when he fell out?

 

[Ian h]

I agree that compulsory licensing will not necessarily prevent similar tragedies, but compulsory USE would make a significant contribution to preventing similar accidents.


Perhaps it's time to invent a proximity device so that the driver is not physically connected to the kill-cord switch. Something about the size and shape of a watch strap, so that if it goes more than a metre or so from the controls, the engine /gearbox goes to neutral. The 'wimp' factor of having a piece of red plastic tied to the driver is then mitigated.

I suspect that legislation will be overtaken by insurance companies requiring kill-cords or neutralisers. If indeed some speedy craft are insured in the first place

There is a wireless kill switch already on the market

http://www.fastnetmarine.com/autotether-wireless-kill-switch--screamer-alarm-13-c.asp

 

[Gentlemanracer]

The extent to which safety is recognised comes from an individual's mind set. Mandatory this or that means nothing without enforcement. Although I'm still a newbie in this boating lark, I am honestly shocked at how little attention is paid to personal safety in small boats. And from there, liability to others, which I suspect is where the story goes next; remembering that not even third party insurance is mandatory, safety really isn't something to ignore. Another word for it is responsibility. Now how many of us have tested their kill chord to see if it does in fact stop the motor? Hmm!

 

[GrahamHR]

Admittedly it's "after the fact", but every time we have moored up, I stop the engine using the kill switch. OK, next time out it may not work, but on a petrol engine boat it actually usually cuts the supply to the ignition; I (still) can't envisage how it could "fail unsafe" and allow the engine to carry on running with out a +12V supply ( there again, due to what I can only attribute to wiring/ connecter corrosion issues and a relay on the engine circuit box latching on, mine did just that about 5 years ago whilst on the drive; I switched off the ignition switch and removed the key. the only way I could stop it was to remove the connection to the ignition amplifier !)

 

[taz]

I am not suitably qualified to comment on what should or should not be done but when I joined this site a couple of years back(no knowledge of baoting whatsoever) I was quite shocked to learn how little regulation there is regarding the user.

 

[cryan]

A couple of years ago I was shown some information regarding an study of safety in merchant shipping. It showed that the fatality rate had pretty much remained the same since the end of WW2 despite that during this time the safety bureaucracy has increased 100 fold. It concluded that the reason for this was that going to sea was a dangerous occupation and that for the most part those dangers are beyond the control of the average human.
However. Those that make their living from the sea (Merchant Seamen in the case of the study), are, and always have been, subject to training, even if that training has been vocational and on the job. Leisure boaters are not.
Most leisure boaters I have come across over the years are very enthusiastic about their hobby and at the very least engage others for hints and tips and many enrol themselves on some type of formal training. I do occasionally come across leisure boaters that genuinely scare me!
I don't think compulsory licensing is the answer nor compulsory insurance. I think what is really required is a change in culture, possibly led by an advertising campaign to emphasise safe thinking. Boating is fun but nobody should ever be under any illusion that as soon as you let go of the quayside your in serious danger of never setting foot upon it again. And all the legislation in the world will never change that fact.

 

[gravygraham]

I can't see proximity tags or radio devices working. The fools we're trying to protect will leave them in the glove-box or tape them to the dashboard. It's got to be something like a pressure pad on the seat, or better still, a killcord with a heart rate monitor/detector on the human end.

Bear in mind why the recent tragedy attracted media attention (other than the fact that the central character was in the media business). It's the (fortunate) infrequency of these incidents which makes them newsworthy.

I don't think compulsory licensing is the answer nor compulsory insurance. I think what is really required is a change in culture, possibly led by an advertising campaign to emphasise safe thinking. Boating is fun but nobody should ever be under any illusion that as soon as you let go of the quayside your in serious danger of never setting foot upon it again. And all the legislation in the world will never change that fact.

+1

I am not suitably qualified to comment on what should or should not be done but when I joined this site a couple of years back(no knowledge of baoting whatsoever) I was quite shocked to learn how little regulation there is regarding the user.

Blimey - you've clocked up 12k posts in that time!

 

[Uricanejack]

Compulsory licensing is in place for personal use of motor vehicles, motor bikes and air craft. The use of helmets and seatbelts voluntarily was unsuccessful. The law was required to ensure compliance.

By logic you would expect high powered R.I.B.’s to require the same. Until you look at it more closely rather than as a reaction to one specific tragic event.

The loss of life involved in motor vehicle accidents and motor cycle accidents was huge. By comparison the fatality rate from boating is tiny. The fatality rate form private aircraft accidents is small but the percentage of fatalities per incident is very high.

Why would you separate out Ribs from other forms of recreational boating and require licensing of RIB operators. The overall fatalities from recreational boating include all types of boating the rates may vary at times. People die in accidents from Canoes, Row Boats, Sailboats, PWC, small power boats RIBs and Big Yachts.

Over the course of a year how many recreational boating fatalities are there in the UK.?
What are the accident rates for different types of recreational boating activity.?
How many recreational boating accidents involved an operator who had absolutely no voluntary training experience ?
How many of those might have been changed by having a licence?

If those cant be answered then a license requirement is nothing more than an uninformed knee-jerk reaction.

 

[taz]

Blimey - you've clocked up 12k posts in that time!

Yep, but in my defense I was told they were redeemable at Tesco's.

 

[alant]

I am not suitably qualified to comment on what should or should not be done but when I joined this site a couple of years back(no knowledge of baoting whatsoever) I was quite shocked to learn how little regulation there is regarding the user.

Has it changed then?

 

[taz]

Has it changed then?

Yes, I now know what the blunt and sharp end are called and I have a boat awaiting collection and a re-fit(DIY).

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

I am not suitably qualified to comment on what should or should not be done but when I joined this site a couple of years back(no knowledge of baoting whatsoever) I was quite shocked to learn how little regulation there is regarding the user.

Thats the attraction of boating in the UK. It was one of the last few remaining largely unregulated pastimes that we can enjoy without the interference of the nanny state. Boating is far more regulated in other countries but their safety record is no better than ours. Far better that boaters are encouraged to get training and respect what they have been taught.
To all those who say that this accident should lead to boating being more regulated, I say please explain how regulations would have prevented this accident and who would police those regulations. If there was a regulation requiring all drivers of small craft to attach the kill cord, would the driver of this boat have respected that regulation? Driving cars on roads is highly regulated yet every day thousands of drivers fail to respect those regulations whether it be breaking the speed limit, talking on a mobile phone or running a red light. Have drivers become better since driving became more regulated? Well you know the answer to that. As I say, far better that boaters are encouraged to buy in to the concept of training and improving themselves rather than having a bunch of useless regulations foisted on them and policed by yet another layer of overpaid and overpensioned civil servants

 

[taz]

If compulsory training/licencing were to be introduced I wonder if 'grandfather rights' would also be used for those with experience gained over years of boating, as they did when HGV/car tests were brought in?

 

[henryf]

I wonder if we might see licensing introduced via the back door rather than the front door. Notwithstanding fatalities the people who bear the brunt of boating accidents are the insurers. They are not known for their charity and are run by people who know probability to within a fraction of a percent.

If insurers made training a requirement of getting insurance then everyone would learn before buying rare than after. Training doesn't have to be to Yachtmaster standard. A basic powerboat course would go a long way.

Now you might argue requiring a licence of some sort would simply make people not insure their boats, but the value is so high I don't think this would happen. Similarly the ability to seize a boat following a third party incident means uninsured losses are less of an issue than they are in cars where the value may be as low as a few hundred pounds. Even a modest powerboat is £5k and it doesn't take much to get into 6 figures.

So if there really is a problem then it will be the insurers who instigate mass training, not politicians or marine officials.

I also think insurance should be a legal requirement when using a boat.

Henry

 

[Tranona]

There seems to be no pressure from insurance companies to require licences. Very few, if any give any recognition to existing qualifications by way of a discount. The cost of insurance is low which suggests the risks in general are low, and in my experience insurers operate a more focused system of determining risk related to a particular boat and its owner. If you fit the "normal" low risk category they ask few questions. However, once you move out of the ordinary - old boat, powerful boat but no experience, boating in high risk locations or situations, or in areas where repair costs are high then the premiums are adjusted, or cover refused.

Agree third party cover should be compulsory as it is cheap (compared with cover for the boat).