G
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petery
New member
Re: Admiralty Charts
The pricing logic in your post reminds me of my wife's reaction in a restuarant when she tells me that she could go to a supermarket and buy 10lbs of sprouts for the price of a restaurant portion. Fixed overheads and batch production costs must be the major factor in pricing charts.
Seriously though, I understand the Admiralty were still engraving charts in the 1960s so they are slow to take up new technology. In the same way that my C-Map supplier holds nothing in stock and 'blows' a custom chart for me from his master database, I'm sure it won't be long - if its not being done already - before large charts will be available on demand, being printed as required from the stored digital or raster data. In this way most of the set up costs will be saved.
The pricing logic in your post reminds me of my wife's reaction in a restuarant when she tells me that she could go to a supermarket and buy 10lbs of sprouts for the price of a restaurant portion. Fixed overheads and batch production costs must be the major factor in pricing charts.
Seriously though, I understand the Admiralty were still engraving charts in the 1960s so they are slow to take up new technology. In the same way that my C-Map supplier holds nothing in stock and 'blows' a custom chart for me from his master database, I'm sure it won't be long - if its not being done already - before large charts will be available on demand, being printed as required from the stored digital or raster data. In this way most of the set up costs will be saved.
Twister_Ken
Well-known member
Re: Admiralty Charts
And indeed you've been able to buy 'customised' OS maps like that for years. Not cheap though
And indeed you've been able to buy 'customised' OS maps like that for years. Not cheap though
LadyInBed
Well-known member
Re: Admiralty Charts
I agree. As Admiralty Charts are principaly for the use of the Navy and we are a side line I still think they are taking the pish.
And I think the Admiralty Small Craft portfolios are pants!
I agree. As Admiralty Charts are principaly for the use of the Navy and we are a side line I still think they are taking the pish.
And I think the Admiralty Small Craft portfolios are pants!
extravert
New member
Re: Admiralty Charts
My understanding as to why Admiralty charts are so expensive compared to OS maps is this...
1) Surveying at sea is more difficult and more costly than suveying on land;
2) They don't sell nearly as many of them;
3) Charts are corrected up to the day when you buy them. This is a costly labour intensive job for the stockist.
Does anyone know if the Hydrographic Office runs at a profit, break-even or loss?
My understanding as to why Admiralty charts are so expensive compared to OS maps is this...
1) Surveying at sea is more difficult and more costly than suveying on land;
2) They don't sell nearly as many of them;
3) Charts are corrected up to the day when you buy them. This is a costly labour intensive job for the stockist.
Does anyone know if the Hydrographic Office runs at a profit, break-even or loss?
Twister_Ken
Well-known member
Re: Admiralty Charts
>Does anyone know if the Hydrographic Office runs at a profit, break-even or loss?<
No, but I did attend a CA event where the Droggy's Marketing Manager (or some such) was the speaker, and the UKHO has definitely been instructed by the Govt to become financially independent within a certain timescale (sorry, can't remember how long).
I also got the impression that the ships market is going electronic in a big way and that UKHO likes this, whereas the leisure sailor still wants paper and ink, which UKHO thinks is a nuisance becasue paper and ink is where a lot of unrecoverable costs sit.
>Does anyone know if the Hydrographic Office runs at a profit, break-even or loss?<
No, but I did attend a CA event where the Droggy's Marketing Manager (or some such) was the speaker, and the UKHO has definitely been instructed by the Govt to become financially independent within a certain timescale (sorry, can't remember how long).
I also got the impression that the ships market is going electronic in a big way and that UKHO likes this, whereas the leisure sailor still wants paper and ink, which UKHO thinks is a nuisance becasue paper and ink is where a lot of unrecoverable costs sit.
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pandroid
Active member
Re: Admiralty Charts
Like the Met Office, the Hydrographic Office is a Trading Fund, which basically means it has to operate like a business that just happens to be owned by the government. They posted a 'profit' of £6.3m last year, and will be leaned on by the government to get this up as much as poss. Once again, like the Met Office, the biggest customer is/was the MOD, however they cant milk that for more revenue (being government owned) so they've realised they have to milk the poor leisure sailor. Expect more and more 'services' at premium rates. I'd love the idea of Admiralty Charts at 5 quid, but I just dont expect it to happen.
Incidentally, Kelvin Hughes told me that they sell vast amounts more of C-Map than ARCS.
Like the Met Office, the Hydrographic Office is a Trading Fund, which basically means it has to operate like a business that just happens to be owned by the government. They posted a 'profit' of £6.3m last year, and will be leaned on by the government to get this up as much as poss. Once again, like the Met Office, the biggest customer is/was the MOD, however they cant milk that for more revenue (being government owned) so they've realised they have to milk the poor leisure sailor. Expect more and more 'services' at premium rates. I'd love the idea of Admiralty Charts at 5 quid, but I just dont expect it to happen.
Incidentally, Kelvin Hughes told me that they sell vast amounts more of C-Map than ARCS.
Twister_Ken
Well-known member
Small craft folios
Isn't what you're suggesting pretty much what we're getting with the leisure folios?
Ten or eleven charts of an area of particular interst to leisure sailors, all for £35.
That seems a good deal to me - even if for reasons (I suspect) of replacement sales, they make correcting them a PITA.
I'm a fan - they can be used in the cockpit, in their plastic folder (they fit very neatly across the main hatch on Indigo, and can be partially slid into the hatch garage to stop them going swimming). Occasionally you'll need a 'proper chart' especially for longer trips, but they do save having lots of big floppy expensive charts of extensively sailed waters.
Isn't what you're suggesting pretty much what we're getting with the leisure folios?
Ten or eleven charts of an area of particular interst to leisure sailors, all for £35.
That seems a good deal to me - even if for reasons (I suspect) of replacement sales, they make correcting them a PITA.
I'm a fan - they can be used in the cockpit, in their plastic folder (they fit very neatly across the main hatch on Indigo, and can be partially slid into the hatch garage to stop them going swimming). Occasionally you'll need a 'proper chart' especially for longer trips, but they do save having lots of big floppy expensive charts of extensively sailed waters.
andy_wilson
New member
It\'s not the production cost......
.. it's the distribution cost that's the issue.
Or rather the fact that when you walk into a chart agent you expect to walk out with the chart (possibly obscure) you want, fully corrected up to date (yesterday).
Buy a portfolio and they are fast sellers (good for stock-turn) and not corrected (good for keeping manpower costs down). These are therfore cheaper.
The question is, why do we have to pay full whack for a chart that is not in stock, and therefore is ordered in specifically, and comes from UKHO fully corected, thus removing what must be a huge expense from the chart agent?
.. it's the distribution cost that's the issue.
Or rather the fact that when you walk into a chart agent you expect to walk out with the chart (possibly obscure) you want, fully corrected up to date (yesterday).
Buy a portfolio and they are fast sellers (good for stock-turn) and not corrected (good for keeping manpower costs down). These are therfore cheaper.
The question is, why do we have to pay full whack for a chart that is not in stock, and therefore is ordered in specifically, and comes from UKHO fully corected, thus removing what must be a huge expense from the chart agent?
dickh
New member
Re: Small craft folios
I use the Stanford Charts, on waterproof paper, can be corrected very easily from Stanfords website - and can be ordered direct, fully corrected up to date. I usually keep them for 2/3 yrs, try to keep them corrected and when a new edition is printed, replace them.
They work for me, I prefer them to Admiralty charts.
dickh
I'd rather be sailing...
I use the Stanford Charts, on waterproof paper, can be corrected very easily from Stanfords website - and can be ordered direct, fully corrected up to date. I usually keep them for 2/3 yrs, try to keep them corrected and when a new edition is printed, replace them.
They work for me, I prefer them to Admiralty charts.
dickh
I'd rather be sailing...
Forbsie
New member
Re: Admiralty Charts
Could someone please tell me what size/s charts are? I have a little idea brewing.
<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.arweb.co.uk/argallery/forbsie>My Project Pics</A>
Could someone please tell me what size/s charts are? I have a little idea brewing.
<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.arweb.co.uk/argallery/forbsie>My Project Pics</A>
ZEBEDEE
New member
Re: It\'s not the production cost......
I think you will find that the average person that goes into a chart agent and orders a chart that is not in stock wants it "yesterday" that means that they have to put in a specil order to the Admirality, They therefor have to pay a higher rate for the chart, thus less profit so are in fact not making any more money and usually have more hassle getting the chart. SHMBO works in class A Chart agents and is always moaning about the one who comes in at 4pm on Fri wanting some obscure chart for Sat "as they are flying out to pick up boat next day etc"
I think you will find that the average person that goes into a chart agent and orders a chart that is not in stock wants it "yesterday" that means that they have to put in a specil order to the Admirality, They therefor have to pay a higher rate for the chart, thus less profit so are in fact not making any more money and usually have more hassle getting the chart. SHMBO works in class A Chart agents and is always moaning about the one who comes in at 4pm on Fri wanting some obscure chart for Sat "as they are flying out to pick up boat next day etc"
G
Guest
Guest
Re: Admiralty Charts
Admiralty charts are well overpriced for the quality of the information. A "new" chart of Conwy bay was published in March this year and included data from an 1880 survey showing the river drying completely at LAT which is definitely not the case. There was an area the size of my little finger surveyed in 2000 with the rider attached "subject to frequent change". Not the most useful navigational aid. Fair play to the chandler - they let me swap it for a pilot book when I complained. Such a n inaccurate chart must be more hazardous then navigating by trial and error.
Admiralty charts are well overpriced for the quality of the information. A "new" chart of Conwy bay was published in March this year and included data from an 1880 survey showing the river drying completely at LAT which is definitely not the case. There was an area the size of my little finger surveyed in 2000 with the rider attached "subject to frequent change". Not the most useful navigational aid. Fair play to the chandler - they let me swap it for a pilot book when I complained. Such a n inaccurate chart must be more hazardous then navigating by trial and error.
Twister_Ken
Well-known member
Enduring but not endearing myths
We Brits often tend to think, unthinkingly, that the way we do things here is "the best in the world".
The best police in the world. The best TV in the world. The best press in the world. The best health service in the world (not any more!). The best boats in the world. The best universities in the world. BBC, the best broadcaster in the world. UKHO, the best charts in the world.
But it's all just mass self-delusion.
We Brits often tend to think, unthinkingly, that the way we do things here is "the best in the world".
The best police in the world. The best TV in the world. The best press in the world. The best health service in the world (not any more!). The best boats in the world. The best universities in the world. BBC, the best broadcaster in the world. UKHO, the best charts in the world.
But it's all just mass self-delusion.
Mirelle
N/A
About 26%
of sales are to the leisure market. Or so I was told when I asked, during a visit to Taunton.
UKHO charts are the ONLY ones sold corrected to date.
Obviously, opinions vary, but to me an Admiralty chart is a thing of beauty and a joy for ever. You can easily buy cheaper charts if you want to.
of sales are to the leisure market. Or so I was told when I asked, during a visit to Taunton.
UKHO charts are the ONLY ones sold corrected to date.
Obviously, opinions vary, but to me an Admiralty chart is a thing of beauty and a joy for ever. You can easily buy cheaper charts if you want to.
pandroid
Active member
Re: Enduring but not endearing myths
For my money, the UKHO charts are indeed a thing of beauty, but the German NV charts are much, much better charts
For my money, the UKHO charts are indeed a thing of beauty, but the German NV charts are much, much better charts
richardandtracy
New member
Re: Admiralty Charts
Come off it, surely you know by now:-
"The State and its machinery is there with the sole aim of parting you from the means of enjoying youself."
No I'm not paranoid. It's a view of life I've had for years, and everytime I come into contact with any arm of the state, the more it's reinforced.
Regards
Richard
Come off it, surely you know by now:-
"The State and its machinery is there with the sole aim of parting you from the means of enjoying youself."
No I'm not paranoid. It's a view of life I've had for years, and everytime I come into contact with any arm of the state, the more it's reinforced.
Regards
Richard
dickh
New member
Re: About 26%
Mirelle - Stanfords charts if you buy them direct from Stanfords ARE corrected up to date, reasonably priced and delivery usually within 2 days, without delivery charges.
dickh
I'd rather be sailing...
Mirelle - Stanfords charts if you buy them direct from Stanfords ARE corrected up to date, reasonably priced and delivery usually within 2 days, without delivery charges.
dickh
I'd rather be sailing...
