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snowleopard
Well-Known Member
Re: Catamaran capsize
Wave heights were quoted as 15 metres. The crew were doing a delivery so possibly weren't clued up on multihull survival tactics but in any case seas of that size would be enough to cause a capsize regardless of tactics.
Tackling the north Atlantic at this time of year would be pretty unwise in any boat.
The normal route at this time of year would be via the trade winds. I wonder if the general seaworthiness of boats has given rise to over-confidence or perhaps economic pressures have overridden normal seamanlike prudence..
Wave heights were quoted as 15 metres. The crew were doing a delivery so possibly weren't clued up on multihull survival tactics but in any case seas of that size would be enough to cause a capsize regardless of tactics.
Tackling the north Atlantic at this time of year would be pretty unwise in any boat.
The normal route at this time of year would be via the trade winds. I wonder if the general seaworthiness of boats has given rise to over-confidence or perhaps economic pressures have overridden normal seamanlike prudence..
thailand69
Well-Known Member
Re: Catamaran capsize
Lagoon 440 (apparently)
Lagoon 440 (apparently)
tcm
...
Re: Catamaran capsize
yeah, i thought they shd've looped all the way south, not been near bermuda to reach florida. Not much details, wd've been useful to learn something from it?...
er 15metre waves? Blimey - so quite a lot bigger than small house quoted? Or...weather reports there are in feet so somebody has converted... ?
yeah, i thought they shd've looped all the way south, not been near bermuda to reach florida. Not much details, wd've been useful to learn something from it?...
er 15metre waves? Blimey - so quite a lot bigger than small house quoted? Or...weather reports there are in feet so somebody has converted... ?
Jeannius
Well-Known Member
Re: Catamaran capsize
http://www.sail-world.com/newstext/pda.cfm?Nid=31350&RequestTimeOut=180 Account from one of the surviving crew members.
The day before hearing about this tragedy - but after the actual event - I'd been discussing the merits/demerits of the Lagoon 440 flybridge helm on another forum...
"What makes me anti the raised flybridge is the experience of 17 days and, more importantly, 17 nights crossing the Atlantic.
When I think back to the times, late at night, on watch on my own, watching the big black clouds come up behind and seeing the bright blue blobs on the radar - which on a Raymarine mean rain and probably squally winds - I was very pleased to be low down in a nice, sheltered cockpit. The thought of being 12-15 ft ( not sure what the height is) up in the air and very exposed makes my blood run cold. Even now sitting in a nice warm office I can imagine the experience"
Re-reading that brings it home to me what a terrifying ordeal the crew must have been through.
My deepest sympathies to the family and friends of the skipper.
http://www.sail-world.com/newstext/pda.cfm?Nid=31350&RequestTimeOut=180 Account from one of the surviving crew members.
The day before hearing about this tragedy - but after the actual event - I'd been discussing the merits/demerits of the Lagoon 440 flybridge helm on another forum...
"What makes me anti the raised flybridge is the experience of 17 days and, more importantly, 17 nights crossing the Atlantic.
When I think back to the times, late at night, on watch on my own, watching the big black clouds come up behind and seeing the bright blue blobs on the radar - which on a Raymarine mean rain and probably squally winds - I was very pleased to be low down in a nice, sheltered cockpit. The thought of being 12-15 ft ( not sure what the height is) up in the air and very exposed makes my blood run cold. Even now sitting in a nice warm office I can imagine the experience"
Re-reading that brings it home to me what a terrifying ordeal the crew must have been through.
My deepest sympathies to the family and friends of the skipper.
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tcm
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Re: Catamaran capsize
the flybridge cat doesn't sound a whole heap of fun i must say - in bad weather i wd much prefer to be able to dodge/ hide behind some bulkhead rather than perched up there, and even in good weather it must be a bit sunburny and lonely...
Page 149 of cornell book says re bermuda "...in winter high wind and gales strike the island, February being the worst month with an average 8 gales..."
the flybridge cat doesn't sound a whole heap of fun i must say - in bad weather i wd much prefer to be able to dodge/ hide behind some bulkhead rather than perched up there, and even in good weather it must be a bit sunburny and lonely...
Page 149 of cornell book says re bermuda "...in winter high wind and gales strike the island, February being the worst month with an average 8 gales..."
thailand69
Well-Known Member
Re: Catamaran capsize
[ QUOTE ]
One of the lasting memories of my own delivery was the bright orange RCD sticker by the nav area which advised the different sail plans to use in differing wind strengths and after 35 knots (I recall) it stated it is inadvisable to be out sailing on the boat and great caution needed to be exercised sailing in winds above 35 knots
[/ QUOTE ]
I would love to see a photo of this. /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
But possibly it is just an American Market thing? Maybe also says "do not eat"?? /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
[ QUOTE ]
One of the lasting memories of my own delivery was the bright orange RCD sticker by the nav area which advised the different sail plans to use in differing wind strengths and after 35 knots (I recall) it stated it is inadvisable to be out sailing on the boat and great caution needed to be exercised sailing in winds above 35 knots
[/ QUOTE ]
I would love to see a photo of this. /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
But possibly it is just an American Market thing? Maybe also says "do not eat"?? /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
burgundyben
Well-Known Member
Re: Catamaran capsize
I did read it at the time and thought we might have a flurry of 'Catamarans are dangerous' type debates.
I have two issues with Cats, first they are ugly, second, when they do turn over it a great deal more problematic than when the same thing happens to a monohull.
Much like canting keels, I'm not sure the naval (navel gazing perhaps) architects understand all the forces involved on a cat in big weather, hence the advice for dealing with it and design of the cat leaves much to be desired.
I did read it at the time and thought we might have a flurry of 'Catamarans are dangerous' type debates.
I have two issues with Cats, first they are ugly, second, when they do turn over it a great deal more problematic than when the same thing happens to a monohull.
Much like canting keels, I'm not sure the naval (navel gazing perhaps) architects understand all the forces involved on a cat in big weather, hence the advice for dealing with it and design of the cat leaves much to be desired.
bilbobaggins
N/A
Re: Catamaran capsize
[ QUOTE ]
'm not sure the naval (navel gazing perhaps) architects understand all the forces involved on a cat in big weather
[/ QUOTE ]
Like some others on here, I've listened to and read in depth the professional perspectives of noted, well-qualified multihull designers and builders, over a host of years. I've sought to hoist in the considerable accumulated sea-sense, judgement and prudence of noted multihull ocean racers - one of whom is currently waggling his way through the doldrums.
From the depths of your considerable experience, just what is it that you bring to the debate.......?
/forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif
[ QUOTE ]
'm not sure the naval (navel gazing perhaps) architects understand all the forces involved on a cat in big weather
[/ QUOTE ]
Like some others on here, I've listened to and read in depth the professional perspectives of noted, well-qualified multihull designers and builders, over a host of years. I've sought to hoist in the considerable accumulated sea-sense, judgement and prudence of noted multihull ocean racers - one of whom is currently waggling his way through the doldrums.
From the depths of your considerable experience, just what is it that you bring to the debate.......?
/forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif
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burgundyben
Well-Known Member
Re: Catamaran capsize
I mean nothing more than that it seems to me that we do not understand enough about the environment we put catamarans in to have made sufficiently good judgement about their design and guidelines for use.
I mean nothing more than that it seems to me that we do not understand enough about the environment we put catamarans in to have made sufficiently good judgement about their design and guidelines for use.
thailand69
Well-Known Member
\"sailing not advisable\"
Cheers (not that I was doubting you!) - I think I would also have taken a photo for the scrapbook!
From my reading of this and in fairness to the builders of the Leopard 40 the notice appears to be courtesy of "The Moorings", which I am assuming is their Charter operation - the motivation perhaps being based on actual experiance with their punters rather than specifically to do with what the vessel is capable of.
But I stand to be corrected.
Cheers (not that I was doubting you!) - I think I would also have taken a photo for the scrapbook!
From my reading of this and in fairness to the builders of the Leopard 40 the notice appears to be courtesy of "The Moorings", which I am assuming is their Charter operation - the motivation perhaps being based on actual experiance with their punters rather than specifically to do with what the vessel is capable of.
But I stand to be corrected.
mike_bryon
Well-Known Member
Re: Catamaran capsize
This tragedy has been on my mind since it was reported. We met the skipper in the Azores last year. We were enjoying our summer cruise, he was delivering a new catamaran from the factory to Fort Lauderdale. He was sorting out a visa and a broken tooth for a crew member and on a couple of occasions we talked. It was the hurricane season and I gently raised the subject with him. He was very experienced, he had a lot of miles sailing these boats and it was clear that he really trusted them. I formed the impression that he and the crew mainly relying on downloaded weather files and boat speed to keep clear of weather. The boat was typically bare as you would expect of one straight out of the factory. I hope it is not unfair to say but I felt at the time there was not much of a plan B.
He was a really nice guy and my thoughts go to his grown up children that he mentioned. By coincidence and on another occasion we also met one of the crew who thankfully was rescued.
This tragedy has been on my mind since it was reported. We met the skipper in the Azores last year. We were enjoying our summer cruise, he was delivering a new catamaran from the factory to Fort Lauderdale. He was sorting out a visa and a broken tooth for a crew member and on a couple of occasions we talked. It was the hurricane season and I gently raised the subject with him. He was very experienced, he had a lot of miles sailing these boats and it was clear that he really trusted them. I formed the impression that he and the crew mainly relying on downloaded weather files and boat speed to keep clear of weather. The boat was typically bare as you would expect of one straight out of the factory. I hope it is not unfair to say but I felt at the time there was not much of a plan B.
He was a really nice guy and my thoughts go to his grown up children that he mentioned. By coincidence and on another occasion we also met one of the crew who thankfully was rescued.
boatmike
Well-Known Member
Re: Catamaran capsize
Have to say I totally agree with you. I went across the channel with a guy who had one of these monsters a while ago. It was one of those days when there was a big residual sea from a storm that passed the day before and we were in no more than 28 knots of wind at the worst, but it frightened me to death, especially as the idiot didn't seem to understand reefing..... Most people on here know I sail a Snowgoose Elite. Not the fastest cat in the world and I would dearly love to have more bridgedeck clearance, but tucked down low under my wheelhouse I have been totally confident in storm force conditions far worse than that. Your Priv is the same. One of the few cats that would tempt me away from Prout actually. Designed for blue water and very capable. I have always thought these 'goons are designed for carrying loads of crumpet around the Med in light weather. The fact that they have to draw a picture of the sails for dumbclucks to know when to reef says it all. So does the fact that it doesn't tell you what to do when the wind blows above 35 knots. Loss of life is always sad and of course one feels for the families who have lost loved ones, but I also agree that taking a boat like this out there this time of year is something I wouldn't do... There are cats... and cats.... This one as far as I am concerned has always been a dog.
Have to say I totally agree with you. I went across the channel with a guy who had one of these monsters a while ago. It was one of those days when there was a big residual sea from a storm that passed the day before and we were in no more than 28 knots of wind at the worst, but it frightened me to death, especially as the idiot didn't seem to understand reefing..... Most people on here know I sail a Snowgoose Elite. Not the fastest cat in the world and I would dearly love to have more bridgedeck clearance, but tucked down low under my wheelhouse I have been totally confident in storm force conditions far worse than that. Your Priv is the same. One of the few cats that would tempt me away from Prout actually. Designed for blue water and very capable. I have always thought these 'goons are designed for carrying loads of crumpet around the Med in light weather. The fact that they have to draw a picture of the sails for dumbclucks to know when to reef says it all. So does the fact that it doesn't tell you what to do when the wind blows above 35 knots. Loss of life is always sad and of course one feels for the families who have lost loved ones, but I also agree that taking a boat like this out there this time of year is something I wouldn't do... There are cats... and cats.... This one as far as I am concerned has always been a dog.
boatmike
Well-Known Member
Re: \"sailing not advisable\"
Point taken and reading the sign again it is clear it wasn't put there by the makers so my other post may be a bit unfair, but looking at what it says tells you much about the sailing characteristics of the boat nevertheless....
Point taken and reading the sign again it is clear it wasn't put there by the makers so my other post may be a bit unfair, but looking at what it says tells you much about the sailing characteristics of the boat nevertheless....
tome
Well-Known Member
Re: \"sailing not advisable\"
I'd say it tells more about the sailing abilities of the target charterers than the characteristics of the boat to be fair
I'd say it tells more about the sailing abilities of the target charterers than the characteristics of the boat to be fair
boatmike
Well-Known Member
Re: Catamaran capsize
"Sails" a Fairy Huntsman, so must know what he is talking about.... how could you be so unkind???? /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
"Sails" a Fairy Huntsman, so must know what he is talking about.... how could you be so unkind???? /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
boatmike
Well-Known Member
Re: Catamaran capsize
Yep. I don't think I would have wanted to be there.. 15 metre waves... Gawd. That's bare poles, drogue, and clean underpants time.... It's probably academic what boat it was....
Yep. I don't think I would have wanted to be there.. 15 metre waves... Gawd. That's bare poles, drogue, and clean underpants time.... It's probably academic what boat it was....