Post Brexit, can we buy 2 stroke outboards now?

[Kelpie]

I'm not the biggest fan of two strokes- dirty, smelly, thirsty, noisy things, but sometimes they are the best tool for the job.
Can we now legally purchase them in the UK, without having to go to the Channel Islands?

And on a related note, if I were to call in at Mainbrayce to pick one up and then continue south over the horizon, would I be able to buy VAT free? Assuming I was planning to be away for a few years that is.

 

[Tranona]

Not a chance. The EU directives that effectively ban them are carried over into UK law. Can you imagine our "green" government changing it or such inconsequential matters even appearing on the radar?

Of course if you are leaving the UK you are free to do what you want and buy a 2 stroke in Alderney (if they still bother to stock them). However if you brought it back into the UK you run the risk of it being an illegal import, but I guess that risk would diminish over time as it gets battered and looks very last century.

However surely given your general approach to such matters surely you would buy a Torqedo?

 

[Capt Popeye]

Understand that 2 stroke outboards are available in CI for use on commercial boats, like fishing boats etc ?

 

[Tranona]

The EU directive does not actually ban 2 strokes - it just sets emission standards that are difficult to meet with a 2 stroke. It only applies to leisure use so in theory they have always been available for commercial use. However the market for outboards for commercial use disappeared a long time ago, particularly in the small sizes so it is not economic to offer them in the EU. Some fishermen do use outboards, mainly on fast cats for inshore fishing and potting, and although higher HP 2 strokes did linger on, some meeting the emission requirements and could be used on leisure boats, 4 strokes are now far superior.

Choice is very limited now, but Mainbrayce in Alderney do still offer 3.5 and 9.9 Tohatsus which I guess are made for the Far East market.

 

[Capt Popeye]

The EU directive does not actually ban 2 strokes - it just sets emission standards that are difficult to meet with a 2 stroke. It only applies to leisure use so in theory they have always been available for commercial use. However the market for outboards for commercial use disappeared a long time ago, particularly in the small sizes so it is not economic to offer them in the EU. Some fishermen do use outboards, mainly on fast cats for inshore fishing and potting, and although higher HP 2 strokes did linger on, some meeting the emission requirements and could be used on leisure boats, 4 strokes are now far superior.

Choice is very limited now, but Mainbrayce in Alderney do still offer 3.5 and 9.9 Tohatsus which I guess are made for the Far East market.

Yea particularly in 'weight'

In weight 4 strokes their 'weight' appears to be an issue, really noticeable in the smaller sized outboards

 

[Kelpie]

It will surprise nobody that the specific outboard in which I am interested is the Tohatsu 9.8 2T, with its unbeatable 26kg weight. I don't expect to be using it daily, but I would like to option of being able to go long range at high speed once in a while.
As Tranona has guessed, I'm keen on the electric option, although a Torqeedo doesn't really give much hp for the £. I already have a 68lb trolling motor which has made my oars completely redundant, but I need to figure out whether it's worth building a small lithium battery pack for it.

 

[dankilb]

There are still some ‘garage find’ Tohatsu MxB models out there, if you’re lucky you may find one with little use from the mid-/late-2000s.

Last lockdown I recommissioned a M4B acquired form the previous owner of our boat. It had been used from 2007-2012 and then stored, so was in pretty much ‘new’ condition in terms of the internals etc.

The 5hp M5B weighs only 20kg!

 

[geem]

It will surprise nobody that the specific outboard in which I am interested is the Tohatsu 9.8 2T, with its unbeatable 26kg weight. I don't expect to be using it daily, but I would like to option of being able to go long range at high speed once in a while.
As Tranona has guessed, I'm keen on the electric option, although a Torqeedo doesn't really give much hp for the £. I already have a 68lb trolling motor which has made my oars completely redundant, but I need to figure out whether it's worth building a small lithium battery pack for it.

I run both a Yam 15hp Enduro and a Tohatsu 9.8hp 2 Stroke. We use the Yam when going long distance, diving, when we have more than two of us onboard, etc. We use the Tohatsu when we are worried about possible theft, short hops to the dinghy dock or if we are only going to be going ashore once for a quick trip. Its super light to throw on the dink and excellent on fuel. Its just had a strip and rebuild cos it was a bit rattly so now in fine fettle?

 

[Tranona]

It will surprise nobody that the specific outboard in which I am interested is the Tohatsu 9.8 2T, with its unbeatable 26kg weight. I don't expect to be using it daily, but I would like to option of being able to go long range at high speed once in a while.
As Tranona has guessed, I'm keen on the electric option, although a Torqeedo doesn't really give much hp for the £. I already have a 68lb trolling motor which has made my oars completely redundant, but I need to figure out whether it's worth building a small lithium battery pack for it.

The Tohatsu and the Torqeedo are not directly comparable at the same price level. They offer different characteristics. The decision which you buy depends entirely on what sort of tender you are planning to buy. This in turn depends on the intended usage.

At one level a simple 2.3m PVC dinghy and a Seagull (or Torqeedo if you have the money) is a good combination IF there are 2 of you and you only intend to use it for short hops ashore, This is more than adequate for most European and Med cruising where there are plenty of opportunities to go alongside or into a marina for sightseeing eating out collecting stores etc. Even if you are spending a lot of time at anchor in the Med because of the lack of tides you can mostly anchor close to shore.

At the other end of the scale if you are going off piste or particularly to the Caribbean and the Pacific then things change and the tender performs a different function as you will need it like your car to fetch food water and other supplies when your boat is anchored a long way from shore and the opportunities for going alongside are much more limited. Add in a couple of children and your tender requirements change and you start looking at a bigger , say 3m tender with a bigger outboard so you can travel longer distances with heavier loads. This in turn demands a different approach to how you set up your boat.

Pretty sure you have gone through this process already and if you are planning on going outside the confines of European coastal waters you have decided that a 3m RIB (or good quality Airdeck) on davits with a 9.9 or15 outboard and an engine hoist is the way to go. Am I right in thinking you now have a Moody 39? If so this lends itself well to this set up, particularly if you also build a good bathing platform on the transom

Back to the outboard choice. Electric is currently, I don't think the way to go in this situation. It is far too expensive and restrictive. You could get a good rig of new 3m tender and Tohatsu 9.9 for around £3500 - not much more than the cost of just the electric motor to give the same performance.

 

[geem]

Y

It will surprise nobody that the specific outboard in which I am interested is the Tohatsu 9.8 2T, with its unbeatable 26kg weight. I don't expect to be using it daily, but I would like to option of being able to go long range at high speed once in a while.
As Tranona has guessed, I'm keen on the electric option, although a Torqeedo doesn't really give much hp for the £. I already have a 68lb trolling motor which has made my oars completely redundant, but I need to figure out whether it's worth building a small lithium battery pack for it.

Your best place to buy a Tohatsu 2 Stroke is in the Caribbean. A lot cheaper than anywhere else. Ditto a hyperlon rib.

 

[Graham376]

It will surprise nobody that the specific outboard in which I am interested is the Tohatsu 9.8 2T, with its unbeatable 26kg weight. I don't expect to be using it daily, but I would like to option of being able to go long range at high speed once in a while.

The 9.8 is a brilliant little engine. The EU ban on 2 strokes is on the retail sale in EU for recreational use, not on owning existing one. Mainbrayce warned me that if entering France with obviously new one purchased from them, it would be seized. They won't post to EU or UK.

The 9.8 2 stroke is stocked in the UK but to buy one you have to convince the dealer and Tohatsu UK you are either a commercial user (by supplying proof such as trade invoices from suppliers) or, owner of a registered dedicated racing boat (not weekend cruiser/racer) and the engine is for main propulsion. Declaration has to be sent to Tohatsu that it will not be used or re-sold for recreational use has to be written on on own business letterhead. Tohatsu UK admitted they, as importer/distributor, need to cover their own backsides.

 

[Kelpie]

Y

Your best place to buy a Tohatsu 2 Stroke is in the Caribbean. A lot cheaper than anywhere else. Ditto a hyperlon rib.

Thanks for the heads up. It's unlikely we would need one before we got over there anyway.
Budget Marine have it listed at $1808 which works our at current rates to £1317. I have no idea if this is the price I would be paying or whether I would have any taxes on top of it.
Mainbrayce in Alderney list the same engine at £1509, and I know that this is without any taxes.

I'm hoping that the cheapest option is to buy one in Grenada, at the list price without tax, and then await a tax bill when we get back to the UK- hopefully based on the depreciated value, and with a pretty good chance that nobody will actually ask.

 

[Kelpie]

@Tranona, yes you've remembered our situation and plans pretty well. Pandemic permitting, we hope to get away later this year. We will see after Biscay whether we want to push on and cross the Atlantic this season, or put it off a year or two. We may also end up not being able to get away early enough for Biscay, in which case we would probably head down the canals.

The dinghy choice has been complicated by the babystay which bisects our foredeck. Short of re-rigging, which I've ruled out for now, we can't stow a RIB on deck.
I've got davits which will be great for overnight storage, but I don't want to use them on an ocean crossing, and I think they will clash with the Hydrovane anyway.

For better or worse I decided that a nesting dinghy was the answer. I'm now about half way through building a Spindrift 11N- hope to be sawing it in half next week. We both really like the idea of having a sailing dinghy to play on, much much more than we would want to spin around in a fast RIB, and I fancied building a boat anyway. It should row really well, and I think my trolling motor should work OK too. SWMBO likes that option a lot.

These dinghies are only rated up to 4hp, although I've heard of people going beyond that. But I think trying to plane on a choppy sea in a nesting plywood dinghy could end very badly- I'll see how I feel about that once it's launched. Maybe it will scoot along with a 6hp and I can save a bit of money. Or maybe I will buy a roll-up air-floor dinghy, and a bigger outboard, for those times I need to do a long journey quickly.

 

[geem]

@Tranona, yes you've remembered our situation and plans pretty well. Pandemic permitting, we hope to get away later this year. We will see after Biscay whether we want to push on and cross the Atlantic this season, or put it off a year or two. We may also end up not being able to get away early enough for Biscay, in which case we would probably head down the canals.

The dinghy choice has been complicated by the babystay which bisects our foredeck. Short of re-rigging, which I've ruled out for now, we can't stow a RIB on deck.
I've got davits which will be great for overnight storage, but I don't want to use them on an ocean crossing, and I think they will clash with the Hydrovane anyway.

For better or worse I decided that a nesting dinghy was the answer. I'm now about half way through building a Spindrift 11N- hope to be sawing it in half next week. We both really like the idea of having a sailing dinghy to play on, much much more than we would want to spin around in a fast RIB, and I fancied building a boat anyway. It should row really well, and I think my trolling motor should work OK too. SWMBO likes that option a lot.

These dinghies are only rated up to 4hp, although I've heard of people going beyond that. But I think trying to plane on a choppy sea in a nesting plywood dinghy could end very badly- I'll see how I feel about that once it's launched. Maybe it will scoot along with a 6hp and I can save a bit of money. Or maybe I will buy a roll-up air-floor dinghy, and a bigger outboard, for those times I need to do a long journey quickly.

The Swede I met who built a Spindrift had had a 5hp on it. He said it was the limit even though he had over built his. Plywood just isnt that strong unless it is glass sheathed then it gets too heavy. Our nesting dinghy can run a 15hp in serious chop but it is carbon reinforced where it needs it in the floor, transom and bulkheads.
If you can make it strong enough to take a 5hp you will be surprised how well it will go compared to a roll up dinghy. The long waterline gives you a great speed and comfort advantage. You would also find you dont need to climb over the hump to get on the plane like you do with a small inflatable

 

[geem]

Thanks for the heads up. It's unlikely we would need one before we got over there anyway.
Budget Marine have it listed at $1808 which works our at current rates to £1317. I have no idea if this is the price I would be paying or whether I would have any taxes on top of it.
Mainbrayce in Alderney list the same engine at £1509, and I know that this is without any taxes.

I'm hoping that the cheapest option is to buy one in Grenada, at the list price without tax, and then await a tax bill when we get back to the UK- hopefully based on the depreciated value, and with a pretty good chance that nobody will actually ask.

Last year both Budget and IWW had the Tohatsu and the Nissan badged version at $1400. They have them on offer occasionally.

 

[Bajansailor]

Thanks for the heads up. It's unlikely we would need one before we got over there anyway.
Budget Marine have it listed at $1808 which works our at current rates to £1317. I have no idea if this is the price I would be paying or whether I would have any taxes on top of it.
Mainbrayce in Alderney list the same engine at £1509, and I know that this is without any taxes.

I'm hoping that the cheapest option is to buy one in Grenada, at the list price without tax, and then await a tax bill when we get back to the UK- hopefully based on the depreciated value, and with a pretty good chance that nobody will actually ask.

I think that the Budget Marine prices online are all the duty free prices in St Maarten - the duty free prices in the other islands might be a bit higher.
You should generally be able to buy a motor at the duty free price.
Everywhere still sells 2 strokes, including here in Barbados - although an island with a Budget store would invariably be cheaper than here, and I doubt that you could get it duty free here.
By the time you get back to the UK, I doubt that anybody will be worried about how you are (in theory) smuggling in your wee outboard from the Caribbean - I think that they have much bigger fish to be interested in (and to hopefully fry).

 

[Kelpie]

The Swede I met who built a Spindrift had had a 5hp on it. He said it was the limit even though he had over built his. Plywood just isnt that strong unless it is glass sheathed then it gets too heavy. Our nesting dinghy can run a 15hp in serious chop but it is carbon reinforced where it needs it in the floor, transom and bulkheads.
If you can make it strong enough to take a 5hp you will be surprised how well it will go compared to a roll up dinghy. The long waterline gives you a great speed and comfort advantage. You would also find you dont need to climb over the hump to get on the plane like you do with a small inflatable

Very helpful as always, thanks.
If I think the boat can physically handle c.25kg on the transom but I need to hold back on the power, I could make life very easy and just buy a 5-6hp 4 stroke. Pretty tempting. At that sort of power the 2 strokes aren't all that much less weight so jumping through hoops to find one doesn't make much sense.
I hadn't really thought about the different planing behaviour of a rigid vs inflatable. Just assumed planing was a yes/no question. I don't need to go at 25kt, but I don't want to be stuck at <5 either. I suppose I'll be able to answer all of my questions once the Spindrift is in the water.

 

[geem]

Very helpful as always, thanks.
If I think the boat can physically handle c.25kg on the transom but I need to hold back on the power, I could make life very easy and just buy a 5-6hp 4 stroke. Pretty tempting. At that sort of power the 2 strokes aren't all that much less weight so jumping through hoops to find one doesn't make much sense.
I hadn't really thought about the different planing behaviour of a rigid vs inflatable. Just assumed planing was a yes/no question. I don't need to go at 25kt, but I don't want to be stuck at <5 either. I suppose I'll be able to answer all of my questions once the Spindrift is in the water.

The behaviour of your hard dinghy will be quite different from a rib or inflatable. With a rib you are either on the plane or off. There is no in between. The hard dinghy should be able to travel at any speed from slow to medium to suit the sea state with no obvious climbing over the hump. If you were to get a 5hp 2 stroke you might find it quite satisfactory. Add a planing plate to the engine and with two onboard of will likely do satisfactory speed at not too much throttle. My friend who built my dinghy runs a slightly larger version of mine that is also heavier. He used to have a 15 enduro but now uses an 8 hp Yam enduro and says its performance is fine. I suspect on a Spindrift a Tohatsu 10hp will be too much power. Its always tempting to use the power if you have a few people onboard but the loads on the hull could well prove to be excessive.
If you go to the Caribbean with a small four stroke engine you will be in a minority. Most are running two strokes. There are a few running large four strokes but they are super heavy. The fuel injected four strokes may well be the future as they are now coming down to the 15hp engines. These offer proper fuel savings over two strokes not the fictitious saving that four stroke carb engines were suppose to have but never delivered. They also have reliability but they are still super heavy.

 

[Graham376]

I hadn't really thought about the different planing behaviour of a rigid vs inflatable. Just assumed planing was a yes/no question. I don't need to go at 25kt, but I don't want to be stuck at <5 either. I suppose I'll be able to answer all of my questions once the Spindrift is in the water.

Our 2.9 inflatable planes (2 up + shopping) at 17/18 kts with the 9.8. Nice dry ride most of the time as it skips over the top of any chop.

 

[Tanqueray]

I'm not the biggest fan of two strokes- dirty, smelly, thirsty, noisy things, but sometimes they are the best tool for the job.
Can we now legally purchase them in the UK, without having to go to the Channel Islands?

And on a related note, if I were to call in at Mainbrayce to pick one up and then continue south over the horizon, would I be able to buy VAT free? Assuming I was planning to be away for a few years that is.

Whilst I appreciate that you are looking in a different size range - Evinrude E-TEC 2-stroke engines have been on sale in the UK and EU for the last 14 years at least. They cleared EU (and all other global) emissions tests in 2006 are are described as 'The cleanest outboard in the world'.
I have one on the back of a fast-fisher - and I love it! Fast, light, clean, starts on button, leave it 'trolling' at tick over speed all day and it will never 'cough' or stall.
No running in, take it out of the box and run it at 100% from new if you want, 3 year warranty in the EU (7 years USA) - three years between dealer services (simple) and it even winterises itself! A couple of litres of oil in the tank will be mixed under computer control and then wound down to max lean running as you go - all automatic - a small tank will last me the season. Quiet as a 4 stroke and zero blue smoke.
In a few months time I will hitch it to the truck without even taking the covers off, launch, lower, and it WILL start on the button after 6 months untouched. Love it!