Portuguese Harbour Control Lights

[SeamanStaines]

Firstly, I apologize if this has already been debated but I could not find it in the forum.

Having just got me April Yachting Monthly (I am in Portugal atm so it was late) I read the article about the sad loss of the yacht 'Water Wave' and two of its crew whilst attempting to enter the port of Povao de Varzim. I cruised this coast last year and had obviously missed the danger associated with this harbour.

I then went back over the pilot books I had on board to see what warnings they gave, I also (I am not the cleverest sailor) could not remember a sequence of Red over Green Red to signify the port was closed.

I looked in Reeds, which simply says that a night entrance is not advised if there is any swell, but does not make that sound a serious warning. The Imray pilot again says the entrance may be rough if the swell is heavy but only warns of breaking water close to the breakwater end. Bloc warns that waves over 3m backwash in the harbour but does not mention the entrance becoming unsafe.

None of them say that the harbour is dangerous to enter in conditions of swell and none of them either state that the harbour may be closed in these conditions or, worse, give any information of the harbour control lights.

I then tried to look up the sequence of lights for the closure, for many ports Reeds shows the local control lights (for example Swansea which has some special lights for yachts) but I could find nothing. As far as I know the International Port Traffic Lights would have been Red over Red over Red?

Given the fact that there was no wind, the information in the pilots was unusually sketchy (most Pilots generally frighten you!) and the lights did not conform to the International Signals I wonder where else you would have have gone the learn how dangerous this manoeuvre was.

I don't have an Portuguese list of lights on board, maybe this would have shown the Port Control Signals. I am just very, very confused about the Red over Green Red Signal?

 

[Caladh]

Likewise my wife and I discussed the light issue last night having read the YM article, and think green over red over green aspect is patently wrong for a "Harbour Closed" indication. Anyone else to comment ?

 

[petitbleu]

We sailed down this coast a few years ago and the pilot book had several warnings about the dangers of nearly all the port entrances in heavy weather and swell. (Imray - Atlantic Spain and Portugal). It adds that in bad conditions only four ports on this coast may be safe to enter. It also mentions the green/red/green lights meaning port closed.
I have a vague recollection that entrance closures were also reported on Navtex.

Certainly having sat in the club house at Povoa da Varzim during a gale and watched the waves crashing on the breakwater, the entrance looked very unhealthy.

 

[jordanbasset]

We sailed down this coast a few years ago and the pilot book had several warnings about the dangers of nearly all the port entrances in heavy weather and swell. (Imray - Atlantic Spain and Portugal). It adds that in bad conditions only four ports on this coast may be safe to enter. It also mentions the green/red/green lights meaning port closed.
I have a vague recollection that entrance closures were also reported on Navtex.

Certainly having sat in the club house at Povoa da Varzim during a gale and watched the waves crashing on the breakwater, the entrance looked very unhealthy.

I'm glad you said that, I no longer have the pilot book in question, but seemed to remember reading similar warnings in it when I read it last year as I came down the coast. Was wondering if I imagined it or Alzheimers was kicking in. Certainly having been storm bound in Povoa for a few days last year would not have wanted to enter it under those conditions, whatever the traffic light system said.

 

[SeamanStaines]

I am really quite concerned here because, although I am well aware of the swell on this coast the outline in the magazine did not look unreasonable. hardly any wind and that was offshore so the information on the closure is absolutely crucial. I have the Imray Atlantic Spain and Portugal Pilot (2006) and if I have searched it cover to cover. In the general introduction at the beginning it gives general warnings on not underestimating the swell but always refers to heavy weather as a problem, not something you associate usually with a light wind. Again in the introduction to the Portuguese section it mentions that some harbours are dangerous in heavy weather and mentions a couple by name but not Povao de Varzim. I cannot find anywhere a reference to the non standard port entry lights.

This piece of information is absolutely crucial and surely should not be hidden away.

I just worry this is a mistake that could be easily made. I can imagine easily being in a similar situation and particularly if the wind was light, and I had visited the port before 'taking a look'.

 

[KellysEye]

We also have the Imray pilot and they make it very clear which entrances are dangerous in big swells. They also point out that heavy rain inland will increase the river current and thus the swells to an even more dangerous level. The pilot also mentions the lights.

 

[SeamanStaines]

We also have the Imray pilot and they make it very clear which entrances are dangerous in big swells. They also point out that heavy rain inland will increase the river current and thus the swells to an even more dangerous level. The pilot also mentions the lights.

Sorry to ask as I am clearly being a muppet, I cant find any reference to the lights in Imray Atlantic Spain and Portugal (2006)? The only referances are general about swell conditions (this particular port is not on a river so heavy rain would not have affected it)

My concern is that I can see how this could happen. Clearly you would not enter the port if there was a gale blowing but the article implies this was not the case and the issue was swell which is very hard to judge of course. You would in any case (clearly wrongly) assume that with light offshore wind you where in a reasonably controlled situation, relying solely on your estimate of the swell which is very difficult at night. I am assuming they where motoring as they would have been heading directly upwind at the time.

Obviously, it is impossible understand either the actual conditions at the time or the warning signs as you where approaching but I just cannot find any reference anywhere to red over green red as a 'port closed' signal?

The International signals should have shown either Red Red Red for closed or at worse Green White Green to say that you can only enter with permission. The only local variations I am aware of would be additional white or yellow lights to either side of the main group of three.

I appreciate some ports have there own versions (for example Swansea shows a red or green light to the left of the main group for the local traffic but at Swansea this is because the port entrance has two distinct entry's with the commercial dock to Starboard and the river lock and yacht haven to port)

My concern here is that, it may have been foolhardy to have attempted the entrance but the port control lights would have been the ultimate back stop. If you could clearly interprete the port closure signal you would not attempt it.

 

[Blue5]

Sorry to ask as I am clearly being a muppet, I cant find any reference to the lights in Imray Atlantic Spain and Portugal (2006)? The only referances are general about swell conditions (this particular port is not on a river so heavy rain would not have affected it)

My concern is that I can see how this could happen. Clearly you would not enter the port if there was a gale blowing but the article implies this was not the case and the issue was swell which is very hard to judge of course. You would in any case (clearly wrongly) assume that with light offshore wind you where in a reasonably controlled situation, relying solely on your estimate of the swell which is very difficult at night. I am assuming they where motoring as they would have been heading directly upwind at the time.

Obviously, it is impossible understand either the actual conditions at the time or the warning signs as you where approaching but I just cannot find any reference anywhere to red over green red as a 'port closed' signal?

The International signals should have shown either Red Red Red for closed or at worse Green White Green to say that you can only enter with permission. The only local variations I am aware of would be additional white or yellow lights to either side of the main group of three.

I appreciate some ports have there own versions (for example Swansea shows a red or green light to the left of the main group for the local traffic but at Swansea this is because the port entrance has two distinct entry's with the commercial dock to Starboard and the river lock and yacht haven to port)

My concern here is that, it may have been foolhardy to have attempted the entrance but the port control lights would have been the ultimate back stop. If you could clearly interprete the port closure signal you would not attempt it.

A timely post as we are heading that way in a few weeks, If I understand it correctly if the harbours are closed it is also broadcast on VHF ??

 

[GrahamM376]

I looked in Reeds, which simply says that a night entrance is not advised if there is any swell, but does not make that sound a serious warning.

My 2006 Reeds says - "entrance is rough in heavy swell and becomes impracticable when wave height >3m"..

I'm Algarve based and must admit I didn't realise their lights don't conform to the norm - not that I'm surprised at anything they do here.

 

[SeamanStaines]

I'm Algarve based and must admit I didn't realise their lights don't conform to the norm - not that I'm surprised at anything they do here.

I am not really surprised either, what was disturbing me is that this is such a crucial peice of information that you would have expected one of the pilots to clearly spell it out to you. Expecting to get them on VHF is pointless, I normally cant get an answer during the week, let alone in the early hours of the morning!

 

[Ludd]

I am not really surprised either, what was disturbing me is that this is such a crucial peice of information that you would have expected one of the pilots to clearly spell it out to you. Expecting to get them on VHF is pointless, I normally cant get an answer during the week, let alone in the early hours of the morning!

Height of swell and harbour closures form part of the four- hourly forecast.

 

[Plomong]

I am really quite concerned here because, although I am well aware of the swell on this coast the outline in the magazine did not look unreasonable. hardly any wind and that was offshore so the information on the closure is absolutely crucial. I have the Imray Atlantic Spain and Portugal Pilot (2006) and if I have searched it cover to cover. In the general introduction at the beginning it gives general warnings on not underestimating the swell but always refers to heavy weather as a problem, not something you associate usually with a light wind. Again in the introduction to the Portuguese section it mentions that some harbours are dangerous in heavy weather and mentions a couple by name but not Povao de Varzim. I cannot find anywhere a reference to the non standard port entry lights.

This piece of information is absolutely crucial and surely should not be hidden away.

I just worry this is a mistake that could be easily made. I can imagine easily being in a similar situation and particularly if the wind was light, and I had visited the port before 'taking a look'.

In my Imray Atlantic Spain and Portugal (2nd Edition, 1990), under Harbour Signals (page 11) it gives the Spanish and Portugese harbour signals, without any reference to the International system of such signals.

However, the preceding section gives the weather signals, stating that they are the International ones. It is safe to assume, then, that this means that the harbour signals are non-standard, and different for both countries.

Plomong

 

[SeamanStaines]

In my Imray Atlantic Spain and Portugal (2nd Edition, 1990), under Harbour Signals (page 11) it gives the Spanish and Portugese harbour signals, without any reference to the International system of such signals.

However, the preceding section gives the weather signals, stating that they are the International ones. It is safe to assume, then, that this means that the harbour signals are non-standard, and different for both countries.

Plomong

Interestingly the 2006 Edition has the following:-

Although in theory both Spain and Portugal still use visual signals to indicate whether a harbour is safe to use in relatively few cases do they appear to be used.

It also goes on to mention that they may not be relevant to yachts.... It does not mention the actual signals however

Nowhere can I find any reference to the Red/Green/Red arrangement

 

[GrahamM376]

Interestingly the 2006 Edition has the following:-

Although in theory both Spain and Portugal still use visual signals to indicate whether a harbour is safe to use in relatively few cases do they appear to be used.

It also goes on to mention that they may not be relevant to yachts.... It does not mention the actual signals however

Nowhere can I find any reference to the Red/Green/Red arrangement

The 1999 edition does in fact have a mention on P3 that " although in theory both Portugal & Spain still use lights to indicate whether a harbour is safe to enter, in relatively few cases do they appear to be used. One exception is Figuera da Foz".

The lights are listed under Figuera but, not Povoa. " black ball or vertical green red green = entrance closed; black ball at half mast or vertical green, flashing red, green = entrance dangerous.

 

[KellysEye]

>:I cant find any reference to the lights in Imray Atlantic Spain and Portugal (2006)?

I can't find any reference to warning lights in the pilot either. Although I seem to remember reading that there are some but I don't remember where I read it. Really annoying.

 

[SeamanStaines]

>:I cant find any reference to the lights in Imray Atlantic Spain and Portugal (2006)?

I can't find any reference to warning lights in the pilot either. Although I seem to remember reading that there are some but I don't remember where I read it. Really annoying.

I know I keep bouncing this around, but it is something that is really worrying me in that this is such I crucial piece of information I cannot believe it is not easily to hand. As cruising yachtsman we have to rely on our experience but also in the knowledge that we have. It is not unreasonable to expect (assuming you have up to date pilots and charts) that if there is a major deviation from the international standards that we are expected to know that it would be communicated to us in those.

There is so much 'information overload' in many of the publications (just how many submarines have you seen in the 'exercise areas' that I cannot see how a really important safety item like 'the port is closed because it is dangerous to enter' is missing?

 

[KellysEye]

> but it is something that is really worrying me in that this is such I crucial piece of information I cannot believe it is not easily to hand.

Having entered most of the rivers that should not be entered in big swells, I wouldn't worry about it. Swells are quite normal on the Portuguese coast hence the lovely beaches and lots of surfers. If they are not too igh, 5 to 6 feet it's fine. Much over that and I wouldn't go in.

 

[Polux]

In most ports the rule is green red green but there are others with a more complex signalization because they have variation signals accordingly with the size of the boat.

But the basic rule is do not enter at night in an unknown Port with unsettled weather unless it is one of the main ones. The West coast of Portugal is a dangerous one with almost no shelters and most ports close with bad weather.

The main ones are Leixões, Lisboa and Sines, the ones where is safe to enter except in the most extreme weather. Peniche, Nazaré and Setubal (with strong South wind can be dangerous) are less dangerous than the others and can be open with a lot of wind and waves. Most of the others are just plain dangerous with medium/strong weather and the nearby shore is not a place to be while trying to see the banners or the lights that show if the port is closed or not. Just wait well offshore for daylight and call by radio or telephone for any marina or port (the numbers are on any pilotbook). They will be glad to provide you with the information about the best course of action to look for shelter.

Almost every year sailors, mostly foreigners, die trying to look for shelter on dangerous west coast ports. Sometimes they are even advised not to try and they try against advise...and they die (I can remember several cases).

If the weather is bad just keep well away from the coast and make way to one of the main ports. Almost all fatal accidents that I can recall here happened with boats trying to enter dangerous ports.

Regards

Manuel

 

[JayBee]

I wouldn't rely on port signals on the Portuguese west coast for safety critical info. The signals may or may not be there. They may be obscured by shore lights in the background.

I have sailed from Povoa in calm weather with a large onshore swell. If my engine had failed whilst between the breakwaters the boat would almost certainly have been wrecked. Look at the depths in the port approaches. If the water shallows comparatively quickly the swell will inevitably build and may break. There will be a lot less water in the troughs. While still offshore it is possible to evaluate these things.

Nazare is usually safe to approach in a heavy swell as a deep underwater canyon runs right in to the harbour entrance.

The weather can be flat calm with a huge swell on this and other oceanic coasts.