Portsmouth Yardstick for Sadler 290

I've always been amazed at how little information on PY numbers is available from the RYA. What is on their list comes in no discernible order, either. Most boats are built to a class spec - sister to tens or hundreds identical boats - but the RYA still rant on about individual ratings as though each were still handcrafted from hewn logs and built by eye. For those of us who want to do an occasional club race, the rating system cannot hope to offer a fair handicap. Come to that, local bodies seem to adjust ratings based on results in such a way that if you beat a plonker across the line, you get further handicapped. The point to this rant, I guess, is that adjustments for deviation from original design is fine, but why should it change because you get a good crew together and sail better than the rest of the fleet?

None of the above applies to me, a cautious cruiser, but I'm curious...

Rob.
 
rob2 said:
I've always been amazed at how little information on PY numbers is available from the RYA. What is on their list comes in no discernible order, either. Most boats are built to a class spec - sister to tens or hundreds identical boats - but the RYA still rant on about individual ratings as though each were still handcrafted from hewn logs and built by eye. For those of us who want to do an occasional club race, the rating system cannot hope to offer a fair handicap. Come to that, local bodies seem to adjust ratings based on results in such a way that if you beat a plonker across the line, you get further handicapped. The point to this rant, I guess, is that adjustments for deviation from original design is fine, but why should it change because you get a good crew together and sail better than the rest of the fleet?

None of the above applies to me, a cautious cruiser, but I'm curious...

Rob.
Click to expand...

PY handicaps are an inexact science at best. If you care enough about racing to get miffed because your handicap is manipulated by local forces, you should be racing IRC. Or better yet one design.
 
rob2 said:
I've always been amazed at how little information on PY numbers is available from the RYA. What is on their list comes in no discernible order, either. Most boats are built to a class spec - sister to tens or hundreds identical boats - but the RYA still rant on about individual ratings as though each were still handcrafted from hewn logs and built by eye. For those of us who want to do an occasional club race, the rating system cannot hope to offer a fair handicap. Come to that, local bodies seem to adjust ratings based on results in such a way that if you beat a plonker across the line, you get further handicapped. The point to this rant, I guess, is that adjustments for deviation from original design is fine, but why should it change because you get a good crew together and sail better than the rest of the fleet?

None of the above applies to me, a cautious cruiser, but I'm curious...

Rob.
Click to expand...

It's a basic misunderstanding of the way the system is supposed to wrok:

1/ The PY numbers are based on club reports of boats racing performances and the big problem the RYA has is that clubs dont make returns - they can be bothered. Got the T shirt on that one.
2/ The PY system is like handicap horse racing or golf. The better that you and your crew get, the tighter becomes the handicap figure. If you dont like this sort of system then go IRC. Then your handicap is based on physical measures of your boat and does not change unless you change the boat.

We are about to get adjusted having won the last PY series by too wide a margin but in a way its only fair. Otherwise the lightly crewed or the beginner or even the chap who races in full cruising trim wouldnt stand a chance. And who wants to race if they have no chance?
 
Portsmouth Yardstick for a Sadler 290

Thanks for the replies so far. The question was asked in all innocence/naivety because, like Rob2, I have been a cruising man up till now. I am more than a little nervous of getting involved in club racing. The Sadler 290 sails well, so my guess is that it should be rated lower (ie more strictly) than, say, the old Sadler 29. But how should she compare to a Sadler 32 or similar? All new to me so any ideas/views/hard info welcome!
 
Slipperman said:
Thanks for the replies so far. The question was asked in all innocence/naivety because, like Rob2, I have been a cruising man up till now. I am more than a little nervous of getting involved in club racing. The Sadler 290 sails well, so my guess is that it should be rated lower (ie more strictly) than, say, the old Sadler 29. But how should she compare to a Sadler 32 or similar? All new to me so any ideas/views/hard info welcome!
Click to expand...

Get stuck in, the club/port handicapper will dream up a number for you and your results will decide what happens next. Your boat is too new to have any great number of returns yet, hence the guesswork.
I would say that your correct number might fall between an old 29 and the 32 but much nearer (or even lower than) the 32. (I have no knowledge of your boat, but a lot of folks have posted to say how handy they are.)
Remember that the system is statistical so it is based on a number of different courses, sailed by a number of different crews, in a range of different conditions, on different examples of the same design.
If there are a sufficient number of returns, then it will give a very accurate overview of the potential of any given class. Some yachtsmen are keen on saying that their boat is faster than boat xyz, a glance at the PY number often tells a different story.
The health of the system does depend on a good level of returns to be viable (as pointed out by bosun) and some, hard raced one design classes, can give skewed results. On the whole it does a decent job at giving a wide rage of very different boats fun racing.
 
Last edited:
rob2 said:
I've always been amazed at how little information on PY numbers is available from the RYA. What is on their list comes in no discernible order, either. Most boats are built to a class spec - sister to tens or hundreds identical boats - but the RYA still rant on about individual ratings as though each were still handcrafted from hewn logs and built by eye. For those of us who want to do an occasional club race, the rating system cannot hope to offer a fair handicap. Come to that, local bodies seem to adjust ratings based on results in such a way that if you beat a plonker across the line, you get further handicapped. The point to this rant, I guess, is that adjustments for deviation from original design is fine, but why should it change because you get a good crew together and sail better than the rest of the fleet?

None of the above applies to me, a cautious cruiser, but I'm curious...

Rob.
Click to expand...

The RYA publishes a whole booklet every year on the PY system, YR2 if my doddery memory is right. There are well published formulae in that book for adjusting handicaps on the basis of race performance. It is also advised that local handicap committees do adjust the 'standard' figures if the results indicate this is needed. In fact many clubs these days run rolling handicap systems with the view of organising close racing with wide opportunities for all to win, which is afterall the primary purpose of handicapping.

I have even assisted at dinghy regattas where the PY numbers were varied depending on wind strength.

The PY system is low cost and works well for club/local/'cruiser racing if the local handicap committee makes the effort

PY numbers would be better and cover a wider range of boats if more clubs made their YR2 return more regularly
 
Slipperman said:
Can anyone tell me the PY for a Sadler 290?
Click to expand...
I do the handicapping for our club's very mixed cruiser fleet. I can't find anything about the Sadler 290 in any of the usual sources but if one turned up to race I'd stick her in somewhere between 1000 and 1050 and see how she got on. The only record I can find here is racing off 1000.
I do the RYA returns but the only data they ask for is (for each class): Number of boats, number of races, PY number used, and PY number proposed. So there is no hard data on relative performance. IMHO handicap racing is as much about the weather conditions and the course as anything else. Hopefully over the course of a series of races these effects even out.
 
Many thanks for all the very sensible and encouraging replies. I sort of knew it was a bit complicated, but what I have read here makes sense - the great benefit of this forum. As people may know, there were less than 50 Sadler 290s completed before the builders, Rampart Yachts went bust. I guess most are used for cruising, but I would be surprised if at least some have not been raced.
 
PY Nos.

Was trying to give a guide for you to work on....but....t'was my understanding that the PY nos are a little bit of an adjustable feast! In day's of yore when such complex? matters fell within my remit, one tried to be as fair as possible with the initial No, based upon skill & understanding, ( Guesswork) BUT unless results were significantly out of kilter, we did not adjust until 2-3 results were to hand.....I suspect that on the basis of returns given to the RYA, a yacht that was essentially used for cruising, with the odd club handicap result, could actually be campaigned quite effectively, if sails, crew, & bottom scrubbing was part of the effort>
 
Hi,

I was doing some extended research about this one as I am getting propably the last one (#48) built at the moment and I will race it extensively... and I am doing the handicaps and results for our club.

As DJE already pointed out she should have a yardstick between 1000 to 1050. I found one boat racing off 1080 but this might be a bit too low for my point of view.

Anyway, as the others said: the boat will receive an initial rating and from there on 'your' handicap will be determined by your race results and the other boats you are competing against (race duration and weather are reflected in the results).

You can get your boat measured (IRC etc.) and this will give your a dedicated rating for the 'theoretical' performance of the boat (including no. of crew and so on). But event this handicap is a starter and will change during a series of races.

Anyhow: I do strongly believe that a 290 is quite a bit faster than a Sadler 32 (Unfortunatly I never had the chance to sail one, yet ;) ) but given the published tests of both the 290 and the 32 the 290 should easily outsail it. At least that is what I am hoping for ;)

I will tell you next year from June on...

Regards,
jow
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Other threads that may be of interest

C
WC Privacy
3 4 5
Replies
84
Views
2K
Chiara’s slave
Chiara’s slave

Share this page

Top