Pondering the next boat

[andymcp]

We sold our Elan 333 a couple of years ago, for a variety of reasons but mainly because it was starting to get a little cramped for extended cruising with 3 kids (some rather young) & dog on board.

Much as we loved her, the shallow draft keel was a hefty penalty in racing that handicaps never quite seemed to recover, and the blue hull and teak decks, while gorgeous, took a lot of maintenance and neither is something I'd spec again. Other than that, for sailing she was simply sublime - fast, well mannered and kept gliding along long after others had furled and put on the engine. Having spent the last couple of years sailing all sorts of other boats, we're now thinking of what to replace her with. Now that our eldest has left home, we have less demands on space. And now that the boys are old enough to properly crew, we have more hands to actually sail. And that means I'm back to considering another Elan 333.....albeit a white-hull, no-teak, deep keel version.

The only things that were in the negative column previously were the location of the mainsheet track (across the companionway) and the lack of a symmetric double in the forecabin (Mrs McP's and my preferred location). Everything else was pretty much spot on, including in the don't-ask-it-'s-just-important list:

A smooth foredeck space for sunbathing/reading
Good quality woodwork below
Decent space and mounting for a proper sprayhood
Cockpit controls for all lines - we never did re-rig for one-line reefing but everything else led aft
Great access to engine & mechanicals, since we seemed to spend a lot of time there....
Subjectively, I found the Elans of that generation to be extremely pretty boats.

It feels a bit odd to be looking at the same boat again. With the criteria above, what else should I be considering?

 

[Lucky Duck]

Budget?

Edit - On a similar vain I will be very interested to see how this boat turns out to be in the 'flesh' http://www.jboats.com/j112e

 

[[70521]]

Long term plans?

 

[andymcp]

Budget is similar to last time, so £50-60k at the top end.

Plans for the boat are mostly for weekend to couple of weeks around the west of Scotland, with a bit of (very amateur) racing for good measure. Previously we tended to cruise as a family and race with mates.

I don't see this as being a boat for venturing much further afield, we're not at the stage where we can easily get long periods of time off work so for the foreseeable future it would be maximum of a couple of weeks at a time.

 

[Ripster]

Budget?

Edit - On a similar vain I will be very interested to see how this boat turns out to be in the 'flesh' http://www.jboats.com/j112e

We spent some time at SIBS recently on the J122e - and loved it. Very tempting and defo aimed at the racing enthusiast that needs a cruiser. I crew on a 109 so know that these boats perform well, but can be a little hard and minimalist for the cuising market. The 122e we saw had the extra luxury and space cruisers have, but also the racing bits they normally don't However, at getting on for £300k new - spec'd to sail away - not cheap.

 

[Lucky Duck]

We spent some time at SIBS recently on the J122e - and loved it. Very tempting and defo aimed at the racing enthusiast that needs a cruiser. I crew on a 109 so know that these boats perform well, but can be a little hard and minimalist for the cuising market. The 122e we saw had the extra luxury and space cruisers have, but also the racing bits they normally don't However, at getting on for £300k new - spec'd to sail away - not cheap.

With apologies to the OP;

The 122 is rather too big for my needs so spent some time on the X yachts stand were a new Xp38 was approaching £275k once the options list a decent inventory of sails had been taken into account. Hopefully the 112 will be a fair bit cheaper than both of these boats.

 

[andymcp]

We looked over both J and X boats in the period after selling our last, and even though we were serious about a new boat with budget to match, J and X were too much on the race side for what we would realistically get from it. In fact, when we went looking at boats in general with £150k in mind, we kept coming away thinking there were a lot of interesting boats out there but almost all asked for compromises that didn't make sense for our needs.

Having given up in frustration for a while, we got talking again from square one (for us, square one being good/bad of previous boat) and felt in reality it probably suited us better now than it had when we owned her. And would be a hell of a lot cheaper to boot, freeing up money for other interests and projects.

An example - the Elan 350. Cracking boat, sails well, some issues over pure race performance but has great cockpit, foredeck and cabin space and I really like the control layout and the simplicity of the asymmetric setup. Prices when they hit 2nd hand were pretty tempting. But that huge cockpit is wide, and she heels rather impressively....long way for kids/dog/inexperienced crew to fall. Also looks great in the med but would be pretty exposed on the helm bashing round the Mull of Kintyre at night in poor weather. Practically the Elan 410 made more sense but it's far too big, so needs a larger crew for racing and we tend to manage 4-5 for race weekends. Why buy a boat capable of more then struggle to ever fulfil it?

So we came back to solid 30-odd footers with a bit of sparkle in their performance. Hence asking what the other obvious candidates are. I guess the X-yachts of similar age and size, but after that I'm open to suggestions! We're still scratching around, maybe looking for next season if we can settle on preferred boats in our minds over the winter. So no great rush, just wondering what to add to the list...

 

[lpdsn]

We sold our Elan 333 a couple of years ago, for a variety of reasons but mainly because it was starting to get a little cramped for extended cruising with 3 kids (some rather young) & dog on board.

Much as we loved her, the shallow draft keel was a hefty penalty in racing that handicaps never quite seemed to recover, and the blue hull and teak decks, while gorgeous, took a lot of maintenance and neither is something I'd spec again. Other than that, for sailing she was simply sublime - fast, well mannered and kept gliding along long after others had furled and put on the engine. Having spent the last couple of years sailing all sorts of other boats, we're now thinking of what to replace her with. Now that our eldest has left home, we have less demands on space. And now that the boys are old enough to properly crew, we have more hands to actually sail. And that means I'm back to considering another Elan 333.....albeit a white-hull, no-teak, deep keel version.

The only things that were in the negative column previously were the location of the mainsheet track (across the companionway) and the lack of a symmetric double in the forecabin (Mrs McP's and my preferred location). Everything else was pretty much spot on, including in the don't-ask-it-'s-just-important list:

A smooth foredeck space for sunbathing/reading
Good quality woodwork below
Decent space and mounting for a proper sprayhood
Cockpit controls for all lines - we never did re-rig for one-line reefing but everything else led aft
Great access to engine & mechanicals, since we seemed to spend a lot of time there....
Subjectively, I found the Elans of that generation to be extremely pretty boats.

It feels a bit odd to be looking at the same boat again. With the criteria above, what else should I be considering?

Possible similarish boats:

Dehler 34 of about ten years old. Poor man's X-Yacht.

X34 (something of an IRC bandit so maybe at a premium, but does have a German mainsheet system which is maybe a bit harder to handle whilst helming when you're just cruising).

Perhaps X332 - people do cruise them and still a fun round the cans boat - but maybe look at the AVS before deciding. Also getting older.

Bendytoy 34.7. They never seemed to cut it at IRC, but still a sporty cruiser racer. Checkout the cabin arrangements suit you. The keel is perhaps more optimised for collecting lobster pots.

Match 35. A lot better boat than the forum would have you believe. As long as the hull around the keel is strengthened (as they all should've been). Should be possible to get a bargain.

Elan 340 - good cockpit arrangements for racing - I really hated the woodwork down below.

Nothing wrong in going for a 333 again if that's what you want. As they say, they're only half evil.

By the way, I didn't understand the comment about the Elan 333 traveller. Were you saying it wasn't the ideal position for getting the sail trim right or was a bit of a nuisance when lounging in the cockpit?

 

[andymcp]

By the way, I didn't understand the comment about the Elan 333 traveller. Were you saying it wasn't the ideal position for getting the sail trim right or was a bit of a nuisance when lounging in the cockpit?

Thanks for the list of options.

The traveller was more of an inconvenience for kids scooting up and down the companionway when under way. Inevitably they'd grab the sheets to hang onto and more than once their foot knocked the sheet out the clutch, I always had nightmares of them copping a rope burn, or if they were sheltered under the sprayhood then knocking the traveller ropes out could send the whole kit down the track and catch small fingers. My preference is for it nearer the helm so working sheets are at one end of the cockpit and safer shelter and access at the other. Not a deal breaker, just personal preference.

 

[Concerto]

Not sure how this may rate, but why not an early Mystery 35? Should find one at the top end of your budget. Certainly a quick boat upwind.

 

[Storyline]

To me, the position of the mainsheet track is one (if not the) main reason to rule in/out any boat.

 

[Birdseye]

A bit more cruisy but still a boat you can enjoy racing - a Starlight. Handicap is maybe 4% lower than a 333 and the performance of our boat against a 333 sailed by a serious club racer bears that out. Mainsheet is in the right place, and I know which boat I would rather be in when caught out.

 

[Stemar]

+1 for the Starlight. I sail on a 35 from time to time and, even though it's an early one, so getting a bit long in the tooth, it's still a quick boat for a cruiser and goes upwind pretty well for a shallow draft. Very steady on the helm, and good in a blow too. The layout's below is optimised for sailing, not lounging in the marina - lots of hand holds no wide open spaces to take a tumble in.

Just don't run aground with that wing keel - they can be as hard to unstick as a twin keeler and drying out is just plain scary!

 

[Bobc]

Don't know how much a Dehler 39 is these days, but you wouldn't be disappointed. Or what about a 40.7?

 

[Birdseye]

+1 for the Starlight. I sail on a 35 from time to time and, even though it's an early one, so getting a bit long in the tooth, it's still a quick boat for a cruiser and goes upwind pretty well for a shallow draft. Very steady on the helm, and good in a blow too. The layout's below is optimised for sailing, not lounging in the marina - lots of hand holds no wide open spaces to take a tumble in.

Just don't run aground with that wing keel - they can be as hard to unstick as a twin keeler and drying out is just plain scary!

Guess the answer is the deep fin starlight. Sail better anyway!

 

[andymcp]

Thanks for all the suggestions, the starlight looks an interesting option.

Heading towards the 40' mark gets a bit pricey for parking between cruises for me although the space on board is always nice. Have been sailing a 41' recently and felt we rattled around in it!

 

[Daydream believer]

Sailed in company (for a while as it soon left me) with a Bavaria Match 35. Dunno what they are like below but they are quick ( well this one with new laminate sails & a good helm was) & because of the name means they tend to be cheaper i expect.
However for your money you might get an older Hanse 34. the older ones are better built than the new & are more classic. Quick too!!
But do not get a later one. Poorly designed layout

As for speed the starlight 35 is a bit slow. Slower than my 31Ft for instance
Check the RYA website for cruisers to compare ratings & that tells you which are quicker
Of course some will say performance depends on the helm & the kit & yes, I accept that a starlight might be far more comfortable than my boat but it depends on what you want for your £60K

 

[lpdsn]

Sailed in company (for a while as it soon left me) with a Bavaria Match 35. Dunno what they are like below but they are quick ( well this one with new laminate sails & a good helm was) & because of the name means they tend to be cheaper i expect.

Check the woodwork carefully on the Match. Some had foam cored woodwork which wasn't that strong, but I think that may have only been some prototypes. They sail pretty well. IMHO there were minor faults to iron out, but Bavaria really shot themselves in the foot by mismanaging the situation over the 42 that sank in Croatia. I reckon the Match range would have been better than the Beneteau First range once they'd matured.

They've got full cruiser fit out down below.

 

[Seven Spades]

If you want to know about performance go to the round the island website. You can download previous years results in excel and sort by elapsed time. The you can compare boat models until you see the right compromise of speed and performance.

I would say that depending upon your budget and that the best options would be:


Maxi 1100
Mystery 35
Starlight 35

These boats are of a traditional shape which means that they have a little less space than you had before but are probably better suited to the conditions you encounter in Scotland. The Maxi is fast spacious and well buiit, the Mystery the best performing, and the Starlight the safest and best for cruising. The Mystery and Starlight won't slam.

 

[Yacht Yogi]

On the OPs budget it's not going to be a J122 but it should be possible to get a J109 for close to it. The J109 came with a variety of interior furnishing options that trade off pilot berths for cherry-veneer cupboards and shelves so there are definitely less spartan versions out there, which ought to be also the ones that haven't been raced quite so hard. Of the J-boats this is the one that makes the best low budget cruiser while still putting a decent performance in club racing. They also have most of the OPs specifications such as a proper spray hood, double fore-peak berth, engine access plus other things like electric windlass, hot pressurised water etc. And they sail beautifully.