POLL- Do you trust your money with a yacht Broker

[DAKA]

Over the years we have had several long threads on how safe our cash is while in the hands of a Yacht Broker.
Although they have been long threads they have only really been private arguments between a handful of posters.

Without the debating on rights / wrongs lets just see how wide spread the concern is or if it is just two or three of us who don't feel the current system is adequate.

 

[volvopaul]

When I bought my current boat I just paid the balance straight after the satisfactory sea trial, I also only paid a small deposit.

 

[jimmy_the_builder]

Depends on which broker it is, surely? Over the past 13 years I've bought five boats, two privately, two from brokers, and one (new) from a dealer. My answer on the brokers would be yes I am happy it's a small risk for one of them, and no I am not happy it's a high risk for the other.

Cheers
Jimmy

 

[DAKA]

good point Jimmy, if you found the boat of your dreams in the hands of an unknown broker or an unkonwn broker found a buyer for your boat then I believe you should answer no, unless of course you feel the system in place is adequate to protect you from all brokers.

 

[jonic]

good point Jimmy, if you found the boat of your dreams in the hands of an unknown broker or an unkonwn broker found a buyer for your boat then I believe you should answer no, unless of course you feel the system in place is adequate to protect you from all brokers.

Meanwhile back in the real world of actual numbers and real transactions - as opposed to one of these "polls" currently with a sample of 18- in the first six months of 2011 over 700 million euros worth of sales went through yachtworld yachtbrokers across Europe.

That's Seven hundred million euro or £577,575,547.75

So boat owners worth about a Billion pounds a year do trust their money to a professional broker, which probably does dwarf "the private arguments between a handful of posters" a tiny bit.

 

[DAKA]

Meanwhile back in the real world of actual numbers and real transactions - as opposed to one of these "polls" currently with a sample of 18- in the first six months of 2011 over 700 million euros worth of sales went through yachtworld yachtbrokers across Europe.

That's Seven hundred million euro or £577,575,547.75

So about a Billion pounds a year does not vote no, which probably does dwarf "the private arguments between a handful of posters" a tiny bit, but lets not let the facts get in the way.

Unless you are going to send each one a customer satisfaction form to complete you can not state that as fact.

I estimate 25% of them had no idea their cash was at risk.

10% would have the sense to use escrow agreements

leaving 65% who would have experienced anxiety during the process.

Just look at the above sample, it has even surprised me, taking the forum known brokers out its almost overwhelming , surely as a broker you can see your customers have concerns which must be suppressing your sales .

AND all these concerns after you and Tranona have completed your failed education/brain washing program !

Come on its time to recognise the problem or at least agree there is a perceived problem and do something about it !!!!!!!!!!!

 

[volvopaul]

Daka, to my knowledge there hasnt been another saga in the uk since the demise of BA Peters which was how long ago? 3 years at least.

I understand you have a big misstrust in Yachtbrokers in the Uk.

Im not having a go at you but why do you keep posting about this subject?

Out of chance are you thinking about setting your own Escrow company purely for the marinemarket brokerage/used boat sales?

The same subject just rolls on and on, in my opinion you just have to trust who you know to sell or buy a boat through, do your homework if your concerned, the industry is just not big enough to justify finance companies setting up there own HPI database for this type of sale.

What I will add is in my opinion your no safer paying your money into a big broker than a one man band, I remember jimmys quote when he bought a certain boat, I can guess who he was buying from and they dont get much bigger than that.

I cant answer your poll as I cant really decide which box to tick.

 

[DAKA]

Im not having a go at you but why do you keep posting about this subject?

Fair question Paul, there was no need to pussy foot about

I didnt bring it up again.

I was simply replying to a thread gravygraham started as a one off.
Unfortunately I got involved in it as misleading advice was been dished out again.

I decided it wasnt worth pursuing if I was only one of a few with concerns (appeared to be just three of us).

I couldnt add a poll half way through a thread and needed to launch a new one.

It should serve as a very useful tool to the yacht Brokers and associations, clearly they have a very serious issue to address which isnt confined to a few individuals.

You can fool some of the people all of the time but most boat owners are no fools , they are shrewd enough to have spare funds available to buy a boat , most far too polite to say anything, make it easy with a poll or an anonymous customer feed back form and the truth will emerge, but will the Brokers accept it ?

 

[jonic]

Unless you are going to send each one a customer satisfaction form to complete you can not state that as fact.

I estimate 25% of them had no idea their cash was at risk.

10% would have the sense to use escrow agreements

leaving 65% who would have experienced anxiety during the process.

Hilarious.

P.S. I sold another boat today to a very happy customer for a very happy owner and the client account and legal side were all handled with the highest levels of professionalism and integrity.

Another owner sent me this email from the Caribbean which was rather nice.

"All has worked splendidly with the boatsale, once again many many thanks. You are my hero!"

I was entrusted not only with the finance but full power of attorney and the keys to the boat as they were overseas for the whole transaction.

Sorry DAKA the real world of brokerage does not have anything like the level of problems that you would like to think it does.

Not one of us would want to see it, as it would give a false impression of the vast majority of transactions and be damaging to our businesses....like your posts.

We cannot command the government to pass any laws.

As such, until they do, we are members of ABYA where we are now

Required to operate client accounts

Required to have documentation from the bank

Required to have PI and PL insurance

Required to undergo training


If you can get a law passed to make all that compulsory that would be great.

But in the meantime hundreds of us do it voluntarily to the satisfaction of hundreds and we would all condone anyone who didn't.

Chose a broker who is registered and has a good reputation, just as you would with any professional.

 

[epervier]

I voted yes, with 3 transactions with the same broker, I trust him.

 

[DAKA]

Hilarious.

P.S. I sold another boat today to a very happy customer for a very happy owner and the client account and legal side were all handled with the highest levels of professionalism and integrity.

Another owner sent me this email from the Caribbean which was rather nice.

"All has worked splendidly with the boatsale, once again many many thanks. You are my hero!"

I was entrusted not only with the finance but full power of attorney and the keys to the boat as they were overseas for the whole transaction.

Sorry DAKA the real world of brokerage does not have anything like the level of problems that you would like to think it does.

Not one of us would want to see it, as it would give a false impression of the vast majority of transactions and be damaging to our businesses....like your posts.

We cannot command the government to pass any laws.

As such, until they do, we are members of ABYA where we are now

Required to operate client accounts

Required to have documentation from the bank

Required to have PI and PL insurance

Required to undergo training


If you can get a law passed to make all that compulsory that would be great.

But in the meantime hundreds of us do it voluntarily to the satisfaction of hundreds and we would all condone anyone who didn't.

Chose a broker who is registered and has a good reputation, just as you would with any professional.

This is not the thread to go into how safe your money is,or how good you are, this is about your customers perception of risk, subtle difference.

By the way BA Peters were ABYA members and had an excellent reputation.

 

[jonic]

10% would have the sense to use escrow agreements

er....Daka that is what the broker is doing

Escrow
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

An escrow is:

an arrangement made under contractual provisions between transacting parties, whereby an independent trusted third party receives and disburses money and/or documents for the transacting parties, with the timing of such disbursement by the third party dependent on the fulfillment of contractually-agreed conditions by the transacting parties, or
an account established by a broker, under the provisions of license law, for the purpose of holding funds on behalf of the broker's principal or some other person until the consummation or termination of a transaction;[1] or,
a trust account held in the borrower's name to pay obligations such as property taxes and insurance premiums.

The word derives from the Old French word escroue, meaning a scrap of paper or a roll of parchment; this indicated the deed that a third party held until a transaction was completed.[2]


Which is why you and the broker sign up to the following at the beginning:


PROCEEDS OF SALE TO BE DEALT WITH BY THE BROKER IN A PROPER MANNER

The Broker shall hold any deposit or purchase funds in an account designated "Client Account" and shall distribute the net proceeds of sale in accordance with the registered Ownership of the vessel or as directed by all parties to Ownership, within 7 days of clearance of the final payment, or provision by the Owner of the Certificate of Registry and a properly executed Bill of Sale in favour of the Purchaser or his nominee, showing the vessel to be free of encumbrances and, where applicable, on transfer of clear title, whichever is the later.


PROFESSIONAL INSURANCE OF THE BROKER

The Broker undertakes to maintain professional indemnity cover for himself, his employees and agents in respect of their prospective liability in respect of any breach by them of this agreement or any other act, omission or breach of duty giving rise to loss.


COMPLETION

Upon acceptance of the vessel by the Purchaser, the deposit shall be treated as part payment of the purchase price and within 7 days of acceptance:-

(a) The Vendor shall:

(i) in the case of a Registered vessel provide the Brokers with the Certificate of Registry, correct and updated, together with such other documents as are set out in the Schedule to this Agreement, together with any other documents appertaining to the vessel, and shall execute a Bill of Sale in favour of the Purchaser or his nominee, showing the vessel to be free from encumbrances and in such form as to ensure transfer on the Register. Should the Purchaser so require, the Vendor shall provide the Broker with sufficient instructions to cancel the existing registry and enable the vessel to be re-registered by the Purchaser;
OR
in the case of an unregistered vessel or vessel registered on the Small Ships Register, provide the Brokers with an executed Bill of Sale in favour of the Purchaser or his nominee showing the vessel to be free from encumbrances and such other documents as are set out in the Schedule to this Agreement, together with any other documents appertaining to the vessel.

(ii) Deliver to the Brokers a Value Added Tax invoice, if VAT is charged on the sale, and any necessary delivery order or other authority enabling the Purchaser to take immediate possession of the vessel.

(iii) Provide evidence that the vessel complied with or was exempt from compliance with the RCD, as appropriate.


(iv) By delivery of documents in (i) and (ii) and (iii) of this Clause, be deemed to covenant that he has the power to transfer property in the vessel and that the same is free from encumbrances, duties, taxes, debts and liens except as are the responsibility of the Purchaser under Clauses 4 and 8 hereof.

(b) The Purchaser shall tender the balance of the purchase price to the Brokers who on receipt of the balance of the purchase price will hold the documents referred to in this Clause to the order of the Purchaser.

NOTE: Where payment is made by cheque, Bankers draft, letter of credit or other instrument, the terms of this Agreement shall not be deemed to have been fulfilled until such payment is cleared into the Client Account whereupon completion shall be deemed to have taken place providing all other documentation has been completed. Electronic transfer is the recommended means of payment being the most secure and quickest method.



JURISDICTION

(a) This Agreement shall be construed according to and governed by the laws of England and Wales (or Scotland if the transaction shall be in that Country) and the parties hereby submit to the jurisdiction of the Courts of the same countries.
(b) The construction of this Agreement is not to be affected by any Note as used in text or clause title.
(c) Subject always to the Statutory Rights of the parties, this Agreement forms the entire agreement between the parties unless otherwise specifically agreed in writing between them.
(d) Reference to any Statutory Provision includes a reference to that Provision as amended, extended or re-enacted and to any statutory replacements thereof (either before or after the date of this Agreement).




And the broker signs up to the following with the bank.


We give you notice that:
a) all money standing to the credit of the above account
is held by us as trustee (or, in respect of investment
business carried on in Scotland, as agent);
b) you are not entitled to combine this account with
any other account or to exercise any right of set-off or
counter claim against money in this account in respect
of any sum owed to you on any other account of ours;
c) interest earned on balances in the above account shall
be credited to the above account, or to an account of
that type, and
d) the title of the above account sufficiently distinguishes
the account from any account containing money that
belongs to us, and is in the form requested by us.
2 We will comply with the Rules (including in particular,
the Rules relating to clients' money) of the Financial Services
Authority (if applicable) or any Recognised Professional Body
(RPB) 01 which we are a member. We therefore take
responsibility for ensuring that any transaction which falls
within the terms of our mandate to you is in accordance with
any applicable rules of the FSA or any RPB.

 

[jonic]

By the way BA Peters were ABYA members and had an excellent reputation.

And which is why everything we are talking about is post Peters.

I have had enough, you can win. Goodnight.

 

[jfm]

Depends on which broker it is, surely? Over the past 13 years I've bought five boats, two privately, two from brokers, and one (new) from a dealer. My answer on the brokers would be yes I am happy it's a small risk for one of them, and no I am not happy it's a high risk for the other.

Cheers
Jimmy

You're right that it depends on the broker. It's like asking "do you trust a bolke on the pub with your £50?". Well it depends which bloke

Anyway Jimmy you're talking about buying, in which case you are never on risk as to the value of the boat. You have to be a seller to be on risk for all the boat's value, but Daka's poll fails to see that so is flawed

 

[thomshap]

This is not the thread to go into how safe your money is,or how good you are, this is about your customers perception of risk, subtle difference.

By the way BA Peters were ABYA members and had an excellent reputation.

Absolute cr4p, sorry but Peters had a terrible reputation at Chichester, not only at the marina but round the local area and deserved too, but this is not about Peters and you can't tar all brokers with the same brush, as with estate agents every now and then one comes along that surprises you.

 

[gjgm]

Anyway Jimmy you're talking about buying, in which case you are never on risk as to the value of the boat. You have to be a seller to be on risk for all the boat's value, but Daka's poll fails to see that so is flawed

I cant recall..as a buyer, do you pay the balance direct to the seller, or to the broker who "exchanges" docs and monies? If to the broker, then as a buyer are you not exposed to the broker running off with that balance?

 

[Whitelighter]

I cant recall..as a buyer, do you pay the balance direct to the seller, or to the broker who "exchanges" docs and monies? If to the broker, then as a buyer are you not exposed to the broker running off with that balance?

You pay the broker but as the broker is acting as an agent of the seller, once you have paid the broker it is deemed that you have paid the seller and the boat is yours.

If the broker fails to pay the seller then that is a matter between them, but in contract terms you as the buyer have satisfied your end of the contract and the good (boat) are yours.

That is why the risk is the sellers.

As a buyer, your risk is any deposit element, but as already suggested the best thing to do is keep these as small as possible and if you can pay on a credit card, even if you cop the 3% charge. The security it offers is worth much more than that.

I have always sold privately very successfully and its been a case of money in the bank heres the boat not money in someone elses bank I hope I see it next week sometime....

 

[burgundyben]

I sold a car recently, £12k, I didn't fancy waiting for a cheque to clear or taking used notes, we talked through the options, he agreed to order a bank draft from his bank at a branch local to our house, on the day he came to my place, I drove him to the bank, he collected the draft over the counter and handed it to me, I handed him the keys, he drove me home in his new car.

Easy peasy.

Why couldn't that be done with boats?

 

[DAKA]

You're right that it depends on the broker. It's like asking "do you trust a bolke on the pub with your £50?". Well it depends which bloke

Anyway Jimmy you're talking about buying, in which case you are never on risk as to the value of the boat. You have to be a seller to be on risk for all the boat's value, but Daka's poll fails to see that so is flawed

I wouldnt usually be so picky but through no fault of your own, more tranona and Jonic's doing , I am now in argumentation mode

I could have said would you trust £10 000 or £100 000 with an unsecured creditor but everyone has a different value of £, £100 is a dear to an unemployed bloke struggling to keep a rubber duck afloat as £250 000 to a entrepreneurial businessman.

'Value of your boat' is a rough way to cover the divide between all our perceptions.

Anyone of us may have a good year, or a lucky year and be fortunate to be able to buy their next boat using the value of their current boat as a deposit , so I wish you a very lucky and prosperous New year and I hope you are soon in a position to be placing an order on your next boat by using the value of your current boat as a deposit . I hope that clarify the situation and you now feel comfortable to vote

Does anyone else feel my post is flawed..............I feel another poll coming on , ' is DAKA's poll flawed'

 

[gjgm]

W/L

ok thanks..