pole for cruising chute and genny

[vyv_cox]

With a cruising chute ( we are not talking racing asymetrics here just ordinary cruising folk) one cannot normally head dead down wind because the chute is normally flown the same side as the main. The main thus covers the chute killing the wind. Therefore, one has to head off at an angle to the wind to make it effective. In heavier wind this has the same effect as a normal spinnaker used for reaching in that it causes the boat to heal more. This limits its use in higher winds. When the boat is on a broad reach & a gust hits the boat is more liable to heal & broach.
With a conventional spinnaker one can sail dead down wind - or almost so- & provided one adjusts the sheets to reduce rolling & has a sail that is cut for such a situation then one can sail the boat in heavier wind.
With a cruising chute it can sometimes be set to windward in lighter winds ( or at least mine can) but in bigger seas where it is harder to maintain a good line to the wind it will keep collapsing. I also have to play with the foot to let it ride to leeward quite a lot which makes it unstable.
If the clew can be held out to windward this can be reduced. The pole may not need up haul or down haul as the shape of the sail & the sheeting angle should hold the pole in the correct line. Therefore, bending moment is much reduced over a pole that is attached at mid point.
Quite often a light pole such as a carbon fibre sailboard mast may be adapted to hold the clew well to windward . The foot can be adjusted so that it is not too high to keep the sail stable ( Depending on theluff curve)
Thus one can then sail down wind much easier.

Well that is my theory but others will disagree , of course

This is very true. Two seasons ago we were cruising in Greece with another Sadler 34. We fly a spinnaker, our friends have a cruising chute. Our downwind trip crossed a notorious strait between Ikaria and Samos, where the wind went from force 3 at the start to 22 knots plus gusts towards the end. As we progressively turned downwind it was interesting to see how the two sails coped with the gusts. We were able to bear away a little with absolutely no drama. When our friends did the same their chute collapsed due to blanketing by the mainsail, with a great deal of flapping and noise. Eventually they were forced to drop the sail, whereas we continued to fly ours. If they could have gybed the chute and poled it out they could well have continued under it.

 

[lw395]

With a cruising chute ( we are not talking racing asymetrics here just ordinary cruising folk) one cannot normally head dead down wind because the chute is normally flown the same side as the main. The main thus covers the chute killing the wind. Therefore, one has to head off at an angle to the wind to make it effective. In heavier wind this has the same effect as a normal spinnaker used for reaching in that it causes the boat to heal more. This limits its use in higher winds. When the boat is on a broad reach & a gust hits the boat is more liable to heal & broach.
With a conventional spinnaker one can sail dead down wind - or almost so- & provided one adjusts the sheets to reduce rolling & has a sail that is cut for such a situation then one can sail the boat in heavier wind.
With a cruising chute it can sometimes be set to windward in lighter winds ( or at least mine can) but in bigger seas where it is harder to maintain a good line to the wind it will keep collapsing. I also have to play with the foot to let it ride to leeward quite a lot which makes it unstable.
If the clew can be held out to windward this can be reduced. The pole may not need up haul or down haul as the shape of the sail & the sheeting angle should hold the pole in the correct line. Therefore, bending moment is much reduced over a pole that is attached at mid point.
Quite often a light pole such as a carbon fibre sailboard mast may be adapted to hold the clew well to windward . The foot can be adjusted so that it is not too high to keep the sail stable ( Depending on theluff curve)
Thus one can then sail down wind much easier.

Well that is my theory but others will disagree , of course

Seems to me, if you want to sail dead down wind, you want either a conventional kite, or a poled-out genoa.
The cruising chute works far better sailing higher and moving the apparent wind forwards. Particularly in light airs, e.g. in 7 knots true, you might manage 4 knots dead downwind, with a puny 3 knots apparent, until, you declare there is no wind and put the donkey to work. Then you'll have 6 knots through the water and near zero apparent wind.
Heading up to suit the cruising chute, you might get 5 or 6 knots of boat speed and 6 or 7 knots apparent near the beam. Depends on the boat and the sail of course!
Obviously if there is plenty of breeze, dead down wind will worn fine. And of course sometimes it's a lot easier to go in a straight line.

 

[jac]

Seems to me, if you want to sail dead down wind, you want either a conventional kite, or a poled-out genoa.
The cruising chute works far better sailing higher and moving the apparent wind forwards. Particularly in light airs, e.g. in 7 knots true, you might manage 4 knots dead downwind, with a puny 3 knots apparent, until, you declare there is no wind and put the donkey to work. Then you'll have 6 knots through the water and near zero apparent wind.
Heading up to suit the cruising chute, you might get 5 or 6 knots of boat speed and 6 or 7 knots apparent near the beam. Depends on the boat and the sail of course!
Obviously if there is plenty of breeze, dead down wind will worn fine. And of course sometimes it's a lot easier to go in a straight line.

Why a pole out genoa rather than poled out cruising chute?

 

[lw395]

Why a pole out genoa rather than poled out cruising chute?

To be clear, we a re talking about poling out the clew?
Genoa's a lot more stable.
A well-cut cruising chute is not designed to have the air flow reversed. Often they are quite flat near the leach and don't set all that well.
Poling it out, you may be stretching it, as the luff is designed to take the load, not the leach.
If you've spent a lot of cash on a nice chute, IMHO better not to misuse it?
The genoa does the job just as well and can be rolled up if the wind increases.

OTOH, you can always leave the main in the stackpack and set the chute on the normal side....


Setting the tack of a cruising chute on a canted bowsprit or low pole to windward is a different thing.
Also bear in mind that chutes vary a lot. Some will set nicely with a big luff curve out to windward. Others are straighter in the luff and need sailing higher. Horses for courses and all that...

 

[Daydream believer]

To be clear, we a re talking about poling out the clew?
Genoa's a lot more stable.
A well-cut cruising chute is not designed to have the air flow reversed. Often they are quite flat near the leach and don't set all that well.
Poling it out, you may be stretching it, as the luff is designed to take the load, not the leach.
If you've spent a lot of cash on a nice chute, IMHO better not to misuse it?
The genoa does the job just as well and can be rolled up if the wind increases.

.

My genoa is about 30 M2 & my cruising chute is 64 M2 so carrying the chute does make a big difference. Also my cruising chute does have quite a lot of curve. When Hyde cut it I discussed this & they reduced their normal amount for me as I sail single handed & thought that a slightly less curve would be easier to handle. I had another chute before that which had far more curve & i did not like it. hence the change.
The problem with 64 M2 is that when moving round to a reach the boat gets overpowered quickly. It does set ok down wind
Of course there are as many different cuts to these chutes as there are sails so some may have a straight leech which is designed to take more load. But a curved leech or luff is little different to that of a spinnaker in respect of ability to accept load

 

[Daydream believer]

Seems to me, if you want to sail dead down wind, you want either a conventional kite, or a poled-out genoa.
The cruising chute works far better sailing higher and moving the apparent wind forwards. Particularly in light airs, e.g. in 7 knots true, you might manage 4 knots dead downwind, with a puny 3 knots apparent, until, you declare there is no wind and put the donkey to work. Then you'll have 6 knots through the water and near zero apparent wind.
Heading up to suit the cruising chute, you might get 5 or 6 knots of boat speed and 6 or 7 knots apparent near the beam. Depends on the boat and the sail of course!
Obviously if there is plenty of breeze, dead down wind will worn fine. And of course sometimes it's a lot easier to go in a straight line.

One has to consider where one is sailing. Going down the River Crouch for instance makes it hard work tacking back & forth down wind within a relatively narrow band

 

[PuffTheMagicDragon]

.... However overstated the difficulty of the symmetric may be, poling out the asymm's clew must be easier?

EDIT: It's also possible that I didn't understand what Puff the MD, was saying. G'night chaps. :moon:

What I tried to describe was precisely poling out the TACK of the chute to windward when the wind is abaft the beam. Doing this shifts the sail out of the shelter of the main and exposes it to the wind in the correct attitude, i.e., with the luff closer to the wind.

 

[lw395]

What I tried to describe was precisely poling out the TACK of the chute to windward when the wind is abaft the beam. Doing this shifts the sail out of the shelter of the main and exposes it to the wind in the correct attitude, i.e., with the luff closer to the wind.

That's very hard to do on most boats unless the chute is cut small for the purpose. You aren't gong to do it in any breeze with an old windsurfer mast.
Ideally, I would have a bowsprit that pivots up to windward, but this isn't trivial. I've sailed dinghies like this and the sprits are heavy and bend quite a lot!

 

[lw395]

My genoa is about 20 M2 & my cruising chute is 64 M2 so carrying the chute does make a big difference. Also my cruising chute does have quite a lot of curve. When Hyde cut it I discussed this & they reduced their normal amount for me as I sail single handed & thought that a slightly less curve would be easier to handle. I had another chute before that which had far more curve & i did not like it. hence the change.
The problem with 64 M2 is that when moving round to a reach the boat gets overpowered quickly. It does set ok down wind
Of course there are as many different cuts to these chutes as there are sails so some may have a straight leech which is designed to take more load. But a curved leech or luff is little different to that of a spinnaker in respect of ability to accept load

How big is this boat? 20sqm is a small genoa if you can carry a 64 sqm chute?

 

[PuffTheMagicDragon]

You aren't gong to do it in any breeze with an old windsurfer mast.

As I said earlier, I use the spinnaker pole, a hefty aluminium spar that can take the forces.

Ideally, I would have a bowsprit that pivots up to windward, but this isn't trivial.

The pole swinging from the bell fitting on the mast effectively becomes that "bowsprit that pivots up to windward". The outboard end is held from 'flying' upwards by the downhaul that is normally used to control the tack of the sail (block on a bridle near the pulpit) and by a genoa sheet that acts as a guy, taken to a genoa car that is roughly half-way down the track; both these lines are made fast to jammers. The clew, which would be on the leeward side, would have a sheet that is appropriate for the conditions; this is never made fast but is hand-held with turns around a snubbing winch to take the strain so that it can be instantly let fly should this become necessary.

It works for me; I was seventy last December...

 

[davidej]

before I flog our spinnaker pole - sadler 32 sized so about 3m long - coz it is bloody big and heavy

here's a question - we've got a brand new cruising chute and I was thinking about swapping the big heavy pole for a lighter whisker pole to pole out the spinny or help pole out the cruising chute if it needs it

is that a good idea or will i break the whisker pole and therefore should stick with the b great lump of aluminium ~(which means that it'll probalby never get used)

ta

We are in the same boat (figuratively speaking).

Our boat is a 36 footer so your one might do us.

Where are you - I might make a bid if you decide to sell.

 

[Daydream believer]

How big is this boat? 20sqm is a small genoa if you can carry a 64 sqm chute?

Apologies - Careless mistake .I have edited my post - 31 ft boat. -self tacking jib is 20 M2 . Genoa is 30 M2 according to spec (but I doubt it as i have a shorter overlap than normal)
main is 28 M2
Cruising chute is 64 M2. According to specs a spinnaker would be 75 M2 but i wanted the smaller chute for single handing. I rarely use the genoa.

 

[niccapotamus]

thanks everyone - digesting

will be keeping the spi pole for a while and scouring the undergrowth for broken windsurfing masts

 

[doug748]

Have a look here:

http://www.topsl.net/WebPages/ImageFiles/Technical/CruisingChute200.PDF

 

[Daydream believer]

Interesting way to gybe- If one has the sheets on the outside of the sail the redundant sheet drops straight under the bow does it not?

Also the chute shown has a fairly straight luff. My Hyde chute has far more curve than that & sets differently