Please,a simple answer of why yachts have 130% genoas

There seems no point wishing boats were much more expensive ones in later styles unless one really has so much money that the highest end boat is not a tradeoff for something else in life. The moderately-big cruiser genoa of a fairly broad generation of older boats is just a slightly different tradeoff that's not that bad - just do a bit of tacking practice and it becomes easy enough - I'd far rather be tacking a 130% genoa than have no sails to tack.
 
creeks said:
The genoa is dead, long live the jib
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Oh, dear!

Just when I thought I had my Dacron ducks in a row.

Bill Schanen ( see above ) has just turned my notions 'base over apex' ( or, as they say in Yorkshire, **se over *i* )

My 'cutter rig' is a whole lot closer to 'slutter' and, while I buy into the moulded taffeta/3Di furling 105% jib concept, it looks like I must now go looking for a yankee/jib top kind of thing - also on a furler, 'cos I gets frit way up there in front pulling on a sail that determinedly pulls back hard....

And.... it means I have to go out again being a supplicant to them 'entitled' English sailmakers, none of whom is hungry enough!

Edit: There ARE some hungry ones. They're in Thailand, I hear....
 
Tranona said:
It dates from racing under the IOR which did not count the overlap as rated sail area. You will find many boats from the 70-early90s used this type of masthead rig with skinny mainsails and a wardrobe of head sails. Hard work for cruising boats, tempered somewhat by the introduction of roller furling but still leads to poor sail shape when reefed. Many boats go just as well with better shaped and more stable smaller overlapping headsails of 110-120% and padded luffs. You can also on some boats increase the mainsail area by making the sail with more roach and if the boom is long enough and there is clearance to the backstay, a longer foot.

If buying a boat from that era you are largely stuck with an inappropriate rig although money spent on sails and good gear to handle the loads can improve matters. The biggest drawback in day to day sailing is the effort of tacking, particularly if the rig has a babystay so reducing the overlap along with a higher clew can make a big difference. Downside is some loss of drive particularly in light airs.
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Care must be taken if increasing the mainsail area. The previous owner increased the rig size on my twister, the result is great in less than 10kt of wind but I need to take a reef at 12 or hang on to a lot of weather helm. When it's time for a new sail I will reduce the area by about 10% to get the cp forward to where Kim designed it to be.
 
Wansworth said:
Yes but having a massive sausage twisted up on the fore stay hardly strikes me as efficient or graceful.
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It doesn't need to be efficient or graceful!

It needs to float, motor and have some sails to waft the boat about a bit.

I certainly agree that something that is pleasing to the eye/lifts the heart or whatever is a delight, but I assure you you'll have more fun out on the water in any old tub - yea even unto one of those awful looking 24ft clipper bowed, aft cabined monstrosities that I've forgotten the name of - than sitting at home pondering the latest sub-optimal offerings on the market.

Whatever boat you buy (chance would be a fine thing!) you will inevitably think of how it could be better, that your next boat should be sportier, more commodious or whatever, but you would be doing that thinking out on the water, or thinking back to your last trip out, or looking forward to your next adventure.

You've now got your alpendre(?) cleared to accommodate boat clutter. Strike while the iron's hot. What's holding you back?
 
Buck Turgidson said:
Care must be taken if increasing the mainsail area. The previous owner increased the rig size on my twister, the result is great in less than 10kt of wind but I need to take a reef at 12 or hang on to a lot of weather helm. When it's time for a new sail I will reduce the area by about 10% to get the cp forward to where Kim designed it to be.
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Indeed, but many boats of that era were not necessarily as well designed. My Eventide 26 had the usual selection of hank on sails when I bought it in 1980, but the main had been cut down with no battens to reduce weather helm. When I got new sails and a furler after 10 years or so we made the mistake of going for the fashionable 130% genoa and battens in the main taking the sail area back to the original. The weather helm came back in part, but it was the overlap of the genoa that was the main cause and except for off wind in light airs rarely sailed with less than 2 rolls in it. I now have the bigger version a GH31 and we are in the process of converting to slutter rig with a 105% working jib on the inner furler and a big overlapping genoa on the outer also on a furler. Again the boat sailed best with 2 or 3 rolls in the genoa.
 
Overlap is a good thing aerodynamically which is why aircraft flaps often use it to good effect. If this traslates to boats I am not sure but it certainty had a vogue in racing boats partly for that reason.

We also have to recall that large genos were light weather, racing sails and nobody was thinking in terms of furling tham around the forestay. Think of them as a sort of grandfather to code zero and you have a better perspective.

Unless the aim is to mop up racing pots, the Cobra would be quite happy under a reduced, more flexible, foresail.
Personally I would be more miffed with a linear galley but that's another matter.

.

.
 
Tranona said:
Indeed, but many boats of that era were not necessarily as well designed. My Eventide 26 had the usual selection of hank on sails when I bought it in 1980, but the main had been cut down with no battens to reduce weather helm. When I got new sails and a furler after 10 years or so we made the mistake of going for the fashionable 130% genoa and battens in the main taking the sail area back to the original. The weather helm came back in part, but it was the overlap of the genoa that was the main cause and except for off wind in light airs rarely sailed with less than 2 rolls in it. I now have the bigger version a GH31 and we are in the process of converting to slutter rig with a 105% working jib on the inner furler and a big overlapping genoa on the outer also on a furler. Again the boat sailed best with 2 or 3 rolls in the genoa.
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Interesting... how different is that going to be to the trendy high-end approach of having a 100%ish jib on a furler and then some outer mounting with one or another form of big, light, light-airs reaching-to-down-wind sail on a furler?
 
Tranona said:
Indeed, but many boats of that era were not necessarily as well designed. My Eventide 26 had the usual selection of hank on sails when I bought it in 1980, but the main had been cut down with no battens to reduce weather helm. When I got new sails and a furler after 10 years or so we made the mistake of going for the fashionable 130% genoa and battens in the main taking the sail area back to the original. The weather helm came back in part, but it was the overlap of the genoa that was the main cause and except for off wind in light airs rarely sailed with less than 2 rolls in it. I now have the bigger version a GH31 and we are in the process of converting to slutter rig with a 105% working jib on the inner furler and a big overlapping genoa on the outer also on a furler. Again the boat sailed best with 2 or 3 rolls in the genoa.
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Speaking of slutters, a friend had a Vertue with a bow sprit rather than the original rig. He flew a flying jib and number 3 a lot of the time but we came to the conclusion on a 12 day trip the the Azores that the number 2 with nothing on the sprit was more effective most of the time and adding the flying jib when the wind dropped a little was the easiest way to change gear. It dit look great with the flying jib up though. Almost worth the performance loss.
 
Tranona said:
Nothing if you have a lightweight over canvassed boat and enjoy the exercise in light airs. Different if you have an under canvassed heavy displacement boat which would not normally need reefing until getting on for 20 knots
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Exactly. We might well consider tucking a mainsail reef in at 12kn true if we’re cruising, where we might hang on to it til 17 or so if racing, but with luff and foot pulled on hard, traveller down a foot or so. The advantage of a flat cut 105% jib, it keeps pulling hard as the wind rises without distressing the boat.
 
Tranona said:
Indeed, but many boats of that era were not necessarily as well designed. My Eventide 26 had the usual selection of hank on sails when I bought it in 1980, but the main had been cut down with no battens to reduce weather helm. When I got new sails and a furler after 10 years or so we made the mistake of going for the fashionable 130% genoa and battens in the main taking the sail area back to the original. The weather helm came back in part, but it was the overlap of the genoa that was the main cause and except for off wind in light airs rarely sailed with less than 2 rolls in it. I now have the bigger version a GH31 and we are in the process of converting to slutter rig with a 105% working jib on the inner furler and a big overlapping genoa on the outer also on a furler. Again the boat sailed best with 2 or 3 rolls in the genoa.
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Fully battened mainsail and headsails that hold their shape by way of better cloth and panel layout can make ‘the’ useful difference to weather helm too.

The question is I suppose what might MG have specified had it been available back then? And what changes have caught on across the owners association?
You’re enjoying this new bigger boat aren’t you?😊
 
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