Pitch Pine versus "ordinary" pine

Seagreen

Seagreen

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Pitch Pine versus \"ordinary\" pine

Tried a good googling, but didn't get anywhere, so I'm asking everyone;

Pitch Pine: does it swell less than or more than common norway spruce and other "bog standard" pine wood, when permanently immersed?

Yes, it is an odd question.
 
Re: Pitch Pine versus \"ordinary\" pine

Swelling is due to the absorption of some of the surrounding water. Pitch Pine is richly endowed with natural oils [the "pitch"] which I would expect to repel the ingress of moisture. this is what gives it its legendary durability. Thus, I would expect it to swell very little, if at all.
Peter.
 
Re: Pitch Pine versus \"ordinary\" pine

Trying to put those graving pieces in, but getting hold of sensible quantities of pitch pine (ie, a couple of feet) is proving troublesome. I was coming to the conclusion that using a sappy norway pine or spruce will do as well as the wood will swell slightly more than the old pitch pine planking its going into. When epoxied into the now dry planking, the pieces will want to swell more than the pitch pine and thus keep very watertight.
 
Re: Pitch Pine versus \"ordinary\" pine

Hello Seagreen,
A couple of years ago the previous owner of my schooner had some repairs done to the hull below the waterline and the shipwright had specified a high resin pine - may have even been pitch pine, but I'm not sure. His reasoning was that it did not absorb as much water, but absorbed enough to effect a good seal. Additionally he claimed longetivity was a factor too in specifying this type of wood for the hull.

The hull was surveyed out of the water this April and the repair looked great, in fact they had to point the area out to me as it had blended seamlessly with the much older planking.

BTW he also stated that the original builders of my ship would have cut the wood at a specific time of the year, just to ensure as much resin/sap was back in the wood. Whether this is true or just a sea story, I don't know, but it made sense to me.
 
Re: Pitch Pine versus \"ordinary\" pine

I think that Larch would fill the bill best of all the common timbers for your graving pieces, with Douglas Fir [a.k.a. Oregon Pine] as a second choice. Spruce is a very low-durability timber, and is only used for spars because of its high strength-to-weight ratio. The reference to cutting trees down at a particular time of the year is not a fallacy. Winter is the best time to fell a deciduous tree, becasue the sap content is lowest.
Peter.
 
Re: Pitch Pine versus \"ordinary\" pine

Try a reclaimation yard for Pitch Pine, or even a skip company, I used to collect free firewood from a local skip company who have to sort out all the timber from the skips and ended up with around 12 Pitch Pine beams free of charge! I planked them up using a flat belt drive saw bench and my Fergie tractor and used the planks for a bed for my Daughter, flooring for the extension and garden decking etc.
I have an alternative source for firewood now so I no longer visit the skip yard but I imagine they still have to sort it.
 
Re: Pitch Pine versus \"ordinary\" pine

I understood that all the pitch pine in the wild had been cut so a reclamation yard is best bet. Pitch pine was used for fitting out chapels and some banks so availability will depend on what developments going on. Ordinary "deal" is Scots Pine and that can be quite resinous but I don't reckon I'd use it for continuos immersion; stay well clear of white deal, which I think is a sort of spruce - this is soft and not durable. Differing expansions between species could be an issue on wide boards but for a graving piece - not so crucial maybe. Something like iroko is not too difficult to get hold of, it's durable and about same density as pitch pine.
 
Re: Pitch Pine versus \"ordinary\" pine

[ QUOTE ]
I understood that all the pitch pine in the wild had been cut

[/ QUOTE ]

Recently seen Ray Mears making natural Turpentine and skis from a pitch Pine. Maybe they don't export the timber from Sweden anymore?
 
Re: Pitch Pine versus \"ordinary\" pine

[ QUOTE ]
Trying to put those graving pieces in, but getting hold of sensible quantities of pitch pine (ie, a couple of feet) is proving troublesome.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you only want a couple of feet, I've got some 7/8" larch you could have.
 
Re: Pitch Pine versus \"ordinary\" pine

I dont think "deal" is scots pine, not sure, but dont think so?? Anybodyelse?
 
Re: Pitch Pine versus \"ordinary\" pine

The name pine seems to have lost its way over the years and now everything is a bit of pine .
Pitch Pine ( Pinus Rigida ) is not a spruce ( Picea ) Norway spruce and Sitka spruce are hard to get hold of and you will probably be offered Silver Fir ( Abies alba ) as it is often mistaken for Norway spruce but is not a ( Picea )
Another member of the ( Pinus ) family that is readily availible is European redwood ( Pinus sylvestris ) this is used as a joinery grade timber .
This is what i have found out while looking for some cheap spruce for guitar building and my existing knowledge as a carpenter . I also found out if you go into a timber yard asking for some Pinus they think you are taking the Picea /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
Re: Pitch Pine versus \"ordinary\" pine

Oh! Jason, Groan.................picus...picea, I'll see you in the Barmy next week, tuesday!
 
Re: Pitch Pine versus \"ordinary\" pine

Pitch pine is what you need. I have made extensive use of it in the refurbishment of my wooden grand banks. The new decks are even laid in it. It is not overly expensive, about half the price of teak and is in fact readily available. Try Robbins timeber in Bristol, or my local yard Gilmour and Aitken in Alexandria, Dumbartonshire.

Cheers
 
Re: Pitch Pine versus \"ordinary\" pine

Pitch Pine doesn't come from Sweden, it comes [or came] from the south-eastern corner of USA, where it is known as Southern Longleaf Pine. It still grows there in small areas, and is jealously guarded.
Peter.
 
Re: Pitch Pine versus \"ordinary\" pine

That confirms the point i was trying to make . I am looking for spruce for it's tone qualities so no other timber will do but i have been offered timber that is a bit like it . When you need it for a specific reason another timber a bit like it is nothing like it apart from looks . When i asked if the spruce they had was from the Picea family i was told it was unspecified . To me that meens no .
Maybe Robbins are selling Pitch pine but i bet its unspecified .
 
Re: Pitch Pine versus \"ordinary\" pine

[ QUOTE ]
Pitch pine ...is in fact readily available. Try Robbins timeber in Bristol..

Cheers

[/ QUOTE ]

Just rung Robbins and they say its very scarce! Gonna ring me tomorrow. I may have to call the ayrshire lads. A long way for some timber to travel.

Local salvage yards - some think pitch pine is "pine - unspecific", and not what I'm after. I may have to take Forbsie up on his offer. I quite feel slightly daft about hunting so hard for such small quantities of timber.

/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 
Re: Pitch Pine versus \"ordinary\" pine

Might I suggest you have a look in your local DIY supermarket. Check out the pine looking timber on the racks and take a note of the bar code. Take home that info and check the manufacturers web page for the species and then Google the info. Locally we have Arauco which is hoop pine and Cypress fir. Cypress fir is actually Chinese fir from China and Vietnam. Main uses are boat building.and coffin making. Rot proof and bug resistant Its the finger jointed stuff you see in the shops, clear and easy to work. I'm using the stuff at the moment to modify a carbon fibre mast.

Waste of time asking the seller for info.
 
Re: Pitch Pine versus \"ordinary\" pine

sorry to complicate things further

but pitch pine origially referred to pine in Sweden which was heated to extract tar - in which there was a major trade around europe for hundreds of years, long before Columbus

the two species of pitch pine are both north american and were named because of their similarity to Swedish pitch pine (rather like the north american robin which is actually a thrush but has a red breast)

deep breath

the original pitch pine was actually slow grown scots pine (slow grown because of the colder longer winters in the baltic) from dense forests which produced a very strong, straight grained and durable timber for house and ship building (I could digress into a very long story about viking timber harvesting techniques here, but won't)

I saw a few stands of this form of Scots pine in Latvia just after the Russians left in the early 90s - and worked with some of the timber - best wood I ever worked - tough, full of resin, no knots

some enterprising soul might just possibly do us all a favour and go see if there's any left and start good long term management to provide this best of woods for the future - but I suspect they're all to busy building epoxy hulls instead
 
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