Pist'n broke

Re: Pist\'n broke

Right I have said fax in front of me which goes along the lines of...

Volvo chaps inspected the engine and no signs of failure due to coolant raw or fresh water, so it had to come in via the exhaust.

They checked the installation of the engines which was done in accordance with Volvo recommendations. This means Jeanneau fitted it correctly which I didnt really doubt that in the first place.

Lube oil test to come shortly.

quote 'without details of how the boat has been operated I can only speculate that at some point saltwater has entered the cylinder via the exhaust outlet resulting in the failure'

Bloke on the phone couldnt tell me where in the warranty docs that they wont shell out for water coming back up an exhaust. He inferred that if i was doing 30 knots and then stuck the boat in reverse this could cause the damage!

Lets see what Haven Knox Johnstone have to say about this.

I'll report when I have heard more.

Dom

I just want my boat back in te water ;-(
 
Re: Pist\'n broke

Like anyone would drive their pride n joy at 30 knots and then stick into reverse??

What planet are they on??

I can only imagine that being done on a jet ski.

The surveyor should have his @ss kicked as he is supposed to diagnose the problem based upon evidence not speculate as to how the boat might have been driven!!!

The bad PR this will give Volvo will cost more than the price of a new engine.

It costs 10 times more to get a new customer than to keep an existing customer, well Volvo aren't exactly looking after the exisitng customer hear so that says it all.

Service like this makes me sooooo maaaaadddd.

Good luck Dom, hang in there.
 
Re: Pist\'n broke

He told me it is such a rare problem that they wont install something to rectify this problem as it does not happen that often. I told them they wil hear from my legal representation and he said Volvo Sweden will not justify this claim. I also said I thought you made these engines to go into water and he said we have had this design for over 30 years and had hardly any problems.

I am awaiting further reports from the boat yard to see what they have to say.

Dom

I just want my boat back in te water ;-(
 
Re: Pist\'n broke

So what you're saying is that they acknowledge that this is a known problem/defect.

So if they don't fit soemthing to stop it happening becasue it is so rare they won't mind changing you're engine for you will they.

If you don't get a satisfactory response, I am sure all of us on this forum could drop an e-mail to their customer dis-service department if you so requested if the time came!
 
Re: Pist\'n broke

Dom, in my younger days used to a lot of " off roading " I have seen a few engines " hydraulic " on water, they allways filled more than one pot, and then only through intake. The backpressure in the exhaust will keep water out, the more throttle, the greater the pressure. Ask them to explain how you have supposedly done this to just one pot.
Earlier observations re: Volvo exhaust still stand.

Also Water would have to get past the turbo, if you were doing 30knts, then went hard astern turbo would still be on full boost ( 100,000rpm 'ish) and would also have been damaged. Any evidence of that?
 
Re: Pist\'n broke

I think we need to discuss this more on Sunday over a few cold ones ;-)

Dom

I just want my boat back in te water ;-(
 
Re: Pist\'n broke

Dom, been trawling through thread, agree your treatment by Volvo outrageous.

The suggestion of us all email Volvo is a good one, if you have an address. Along the lines, 'appalled at your treament of Mr. P of Guernsey, will ensure my next boat does not have a Volvo Penta power pack'. You may not want this too early in your negotiations.

Re the trading standards suggestion, you could try the office near VP HQ.

All this will take time, you want your boat, you could threaten them with chartering a craft, and suing them for charter costs. A hire car would be expected under such circumstances.

All the best and good luck.
 
Re: Pist\'n broke

If water came back up the exhaust, past the backpressure, it would destroy the turbo, like NOW! then it would be in all the back cylinders, I don't believe it! They should look for something else, like a partially siezed cylinder/piston, "picking up" They cannot prove it was water hydraulicing, I would want an independant expert, I mean expert! Not the usual guy around the corner! The engine will need to come out pronto and be checked, I don't see how they can say this is not their fault. How do you go from 30 knots to astern? the engines would come off the mountings! The boat doesn't just stop and go astern! Even falling off the plane and getting a big stern wave, the engines are still running, how did it get past the back pressure and the turbo? I'm not convinced and I know what I'm talking about! I also think Jeanaue should be heavily involved in this, after all it was their boat. I was just thinking, VOLVO don't give a stuff, because evrybody and their dog has volvo engines, so they have you by the nuts, they make the biggest range and have the biggest slice of the european market for their products, so they don't care if they piss a few people off, it's rather obvious by the way they price their parts and don't give good after sales/problem service. I actually think you will get nowhere with them and I also think your insurance company, if they pay you out, will bother trying to recover the money, they are too big and powerful to bow to the likes of us! They know it aswell, thats why they are basically saying to you, tough! It's despicable! One other thing, they also know you are not going to re-engine your boat, as one engine is OK, so they have you by the short and curlies, sorry, but thats basically the case, just like the marina owners, they have us!
 
Re: Pist\'n broke

Hi Dom,

Sorry to hear about your problem and the unfair treatment. I am in the middle of fighting my warranty rejection claim. Last year you may remember I had a bad case of rust on my oil sump (AD31), I thought this would be covered by warranty as I strongly believe I never did anything wrong. However I had a Volvo engineer conclude he saw a "tide mark" round the oil sump it was my fault for keeping the engine sitting in bilge water. The fact is it never sat in bilge water and in the end costed me £1,800 to fix. I have written a few times to Volvo and again to Sealine and so far not getting anywhere. The guy at Volvo HQ (Turlough Breslin) just won't accept any other reasons, so now writing to Sweden.

What shocks me the most is the attiude of Volvo HQ and my local Volvo dealer no interest in customer service and derogatory comments. Needless to say if a buy another new boat I will not have Volvos.

So I can fully understand your problem and to me seems an easier one than mine.

RM.
 
Re: Pist\'n broke

Well if its not been submersed to allow water up that far ( which considering you'd need to have open atmosphere < cyclinder head end> to do it is very doughtful )

To start with I would think head gasket or lining failer but as you say oil water fine

re water theory

The only other thing I can think of so far is, if the temperature was high in the engine then turned off it may have been able to draw water up because the air or water cooling in the cylinder block could have caused a partial vacuum causing a depression which in turn caused some thermo cycling !!!
Yes I know I know but this is how the brain works .
Perhaps the water outlet is not quite right re the area around the manifold thus water is left at that point , perhaps the baffles are not right re the possible inclination they normaly are set at
I would certainly expect you would have noticed a real drop off in starting !! the starting pressure with a water filled cylinder normally means the engine turns normally until that cylinder tries to compress the water , but that line of reasoning in turn leads to once the water has been exhausted things should be ok ,I cant see the damage being done at cranking speed mmmmmmm so that leads to water getting in at high revs !!!
so dunno about that very doughtful.
Re the valves a faulty valve could if broken or bent cause your problems re con rod and so on .
To be honest this does seem the most obvious cause and more feasible

A large engine will for the most part carry a dud cylinder.

I would think the crank needs to be taken out and checked also and in view of the contamination re swarf and particles the whole lot will need cleaning . Are they intending to do a complete rebuild

What a poxy time of year to get this !!
Mick

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/boats
I want a big steel ex trawler / tug v / cheap or swap for tug
 
Effing volvo!

Problems you and Dom are having convinces me never to consider a boat with Volvo engines, apart from the expensive spares!

Maybe let them know that many others aware of probs with Volvo, not good for their reputation!
 
Re: Sunday.

Your on.

BTW 2 of our crew are qualified mechanics, they can give you their tuppence worth.
Is boatworks fuel open yet ?
 
Re: Effing volvo!

Thanks all.

Jeanneau are supporting me in this and making enquiries for me also. Big mistake by Volvo. The local Jeanneau agent asks me for demo rides and have sold 3 leaders off the back of it so I will be ensuring that the potential buyers are aware of the problems I have had with Volvo.

Worst thing is if the insurers cough up then I wil end up aving another Volvo in it.

Was also told by Volvo that there were no baffles in that motor(??)

Just checke out warranty book Warranty is so vague its a joke but Volvo have alot to prove and I dont. If it goes to court they have to prove my negligence and prove it was my fault that it happened.

Oh well lets see what happens as the weeks go by. First time inmy life I am doing stuff around the house and garden, its sickening!!

Dom

Dom


I just want my boat back in the water ;-(
 
Re: Pist\'n broke

All sounds a bit odd,i think you need a written report by a appropriate marine engineer that will impress a judge or frighten volvo.Your insurer will be able to recommend a company i think,if not Ward and Mackenzie do this sort of work.Good luck.
 
Re: Effing volvo!

One consolation Dom is that the weather's a bit crap at the moment, but then you'd probably noticed this seeing all the drowned worms in your garden!!! <G>
 
Re: Pist\'n broke

Well Dom, in common with the rest of the posters, I'm appalled at Volvo's treatment of your problem and sincerely hope you get it sorted without having to resort to legal measures.

Glad Jeanneau's backing you on this, perhaps with their purchasing power and weight behind you, it'll all be sorted amicably and quickly. Guess the last thing you wnat is it resolved at Christmas or sometime after the season. Good luck.

Oh and if it makes you feel any better, I see Priddy gave S*****n a glowing report over the weekend;-)
 
Re: Pist\'n broke

Coliholic, Yeah did you catch the piccie with the stickers too ;-)

Col I will find out about Boatworks for you, if not do you want me to load up some cans, I can muster about 125 litres worth Shell of course not that other rubbish

Toad legal people are Amicus Legal

MTB thanks, they asked me if the engine ever cut out at any time for no reason, but i have no recollection of this at all and if i thought somethig was dodgy I wouldnt be planning a 50 mile trip to Lezadrieux with all the family on board a single engined boat!.

Lets see what tomorrow brings




Dom


I just want my boat back in the water ;-(
 
Re: Legal and Engineering thoughts

Dom, been away a few days, only just seen. Bad luck, hope gets fixed soon. My 2p worth follows:

Re the legals,
1. Not sure TCM correct. Your claim is against volvo, not Jeanneau or the boat dealer. The warranty is a legal right you have against volvo, merely organised by the dealer
2. Halcyon's "fit for purpose" will not help. This is not rejection of goods, and anyway it is all under Guernsey law as respects the purchase of boat and UK law (I guess, though not checked the smallprint of my warranty papers) for the warranty claim. Possibly Swedish law but that's not serious international currency like English law so I doubt Volvo would issue Swedish law warranties. Need to check though
3. I would be worried about assuming you can claim off insurance. I hope you can, but a bit doubtful. You are insured for your losses, and if you have a wty claim they might say you have suffered no loss, so take care on that
4. You say Volvo must prove your negligence in court. Not true I think. If it ever came to (English) court, the onus is on you to prove Volvo owe you money under the terms of the wty. Not other way around.
5. If ultimately you do get a solicitor, get the right one, I mean check the jusrisdiction of the wty. No good having a Guernsey lawyer, for starters.
6. I would advise write a very carefully worded letter to the company that issues the warranty. Then get a proper engineers report. OK, they have their engr's report, so 50:50. BUT - Make sure your engr is more highly qual than theirs (check his letters etc) so now maybe 55:45 to you. In very suitable wording (a) cast doubt on their engr's opinion by showing it manifestly to be implausible(see below) and (b) suggest their engr is on payroll so not independent. Say you are minded to seek his scoresheet (how many accept/rejects has he made of wty claims) and if Volvo will not tell you then you will apply for discovery. Be very careful how you say this. They will no you are no amateur at this point. Then get statements from high mileage KAD43 owners saying they have never had water up exhaust in total thousands of hours (Not your family or lifelong mates, but third parties you hardly know - I'm sure this board can help there) . Include in these the sentence "Mr Depsol I would of course be happy to confirm all of the above in a sworn affidavit if that were helpful to any Court who might look at this matter". You should now be around 70:30 to you on the legals, if you do it right.

Eek this is turning into long post, sorry. Now, engineering.....
1. Volvo position sounds bolx. I do not agree it is a problem for water to get past the spinning turbo but it most certainly is a big prob to get past the back pressure. Remember the exh valve is only open momentarily when the piston is on the upstroke, so how the hell does water get in there? Most hydraulicing is water entering thru the inlet valve, obviously. Not the blimmin exhaust. Also, the time interval of exh valve open is microseconds: with the vicosity of water, and not presurised, you would be lucky to get a teardrop of water in!
2. From the engine spec, (cc divided by compression ratio) calculate the volume of water to fill the pot at TDC. And calc the valve open interval at say 1000rpm. Then you can estimate (from tables) the water pressure needed to get that much pressure thru that size hole (estimate the valve to be a hole of similar diameter) in time t. You will find the pressure is massive, like you would have to sink the boat mid atlantic to get anywhere near. Praps get your engineer to do all this.
2. To mildly bend conrod, you would have to put precisely the right amount of water in. It would have to be just enough to go solid as the piston nealry hit TDC, no more. If water really was gushing in, what an amazingly unlikely event for it to be just the right amount?
3. No, the engineer's gueswork is nonsense, and I think you could get 1000 chartered mechanical engineers to tell you that

Sorry to go on a bit. I think you can win this by careful legal letter, based purely on the legals and the facts, not a "fly off the handle" mr angry letter but one that conveys to them that you know your stuff and you mean business.

Best of luck Dom
 
Re: Legal and Engineering thoughts

Thanks JFM

Just for everyones info the legal cover gets me £100,000s worth of legal aid, will this last long?

secondly for £10k engine is it worth them going to court,i.e. spending £100k to get £10k back??, last claim I had against a frog that legged it after messing up my last boat the insurers coughed up and never bothered to follow the claim from him apart from 2 letters, he denied it and that was that.

Also Jeanneau warranty only is for Jeanneau bits, anything else that comes with a warranty, microwave etc etc is only claimable under that warranty and nothing to do with Jeanneau.

According to Volvo warranty the items that dictate what they wont pay out on I have not broken so dont see the problem.

I hate the fact that now I will prob have to have another Volvo in their after all the hassles they have given me.

Anyone recommend a highly qualified engineer? Trouble is Volvo have already stripped the engine to bits will this cause a problem??

Thanks again




Dom


I just want my boat back in the water ;-(
 
Re: Legal and Engineering thoughts

Reference the engine being stripped, I doubt there would be anything to see before the engine was stripped, so he would have to do it anyway, but I wouldn't put it past volvo to have now hidden something. But to be honest the post about the lagal aspects covered it, as I said earlier, I cannot see how the water got up the exhaust through the turbo and into the cylinder against the exhaust backpressure, also the water would probaly destroy the turbo, by shock cooling it and then would be steam, before it got to the cylinder, there is just no way, the only way is in the inlet side and then how? No there is something else fundamentally wrong here, I would bet on a picked up piston, I've seen it before on KAD41's and didnt find out until it threw a leg out of bed, (broke the conrod and threw it through the block) nothing to do with hdrostatic locks. I think a very competent engineer is going to find this, inspect the bores! I wish I was still practising I would love to investigate this one!
 
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