Pilot books and the Dover Strait

[Angele]

It's easy to get more scared than inspired by a pilot book. So perhaps I can ask the voice of experience: is crossing the Dover Strait (specifically, Brighton - Boulogne and then Boulogne - Dover) a much bigger deal than crossing the central Solent?

Back to the OP. If you are concerned specifically about the Dover Straits then why not first build up your experience with several Channel crossings further west? Are you concerned about the length of a passage from, say, Brighton to Fecamp?

Further west, most of the big boats would be following broadly parallel/reciprocal courses within the lanes. I think the lanes are wider as you go west (sorry, don't have access to Charts to check this) so the same number of boats are spread out over a larger area and can be "picked off" in small numbers. Also, you don't have the same problem with the number of ferries crossing the Channel from north to south.

I agree with other comments that the big ships in the shipping lanes are far more predictable than yachts (and the ferries to the IoW) are in the Solent.

 

[nonitoo]

But that's my point - it isn't simple. From 15 miles down to 1-2 miles the apparent bearing from a slow-moving yacht will be unchanged. It is only at the later stages that the course of the ship becomes evident, and only then that it is possible to tell whether the ship will pass ahead, astern, or be ona collision course. If the yacht alters course when the ship is ten miles away, in the belief that a collision will occur, the situation is very likely to be made worse.

Am I missing the point here ? You agree that risk of collision exists from 15 down to 1-2 miles and yet you wait until 1-2 miles before deciding that, after all, no such risk exists.

For my money by that time the ship has already decided you are not going to take any action and has initiated his own evading manoeuvre.

Nice work, that way you never have to alter course (only joking !!)

Tom

 

[vyv_cox]

Am I missing the point here ? You agree that risk of collision exists from 15 down to 1-2 miles and yet you wait until 1-2 miles before deciding that, after all, no such risk exists.

Yes, you are missing the point. If a ship is heading generally in my direction there is a risk of collision. I maintain, through lots of experience, that the level of risk cannot be assessed by the conventional means of taking bearings until the ship is relatively close. Try it for yourself.

 

[dratsea]

It's easy to get more scared than inspired by a pilot book. So perhaps I can ask the voice of experience: is crossing the Dover Strait (specifically, Brighton - Boulogne and then Boulogne - Dover) a much bigger deal than crossing the central Solent?

Thank you for raising an interesting thread. Do you have radar? Even if I might be give way vessel, I give way as soon as I have seen the other vessel and by at least 30 deg change of course or stopping dead (but if seen only on radar then only if I can do so by maintaining speed and turning to starboard). If I am clearly stand on, I do, provided that I have an option of getting out of trouble (if not do 180 and put engine on). If standing on in fog and collision imminent I aim to be head on, and lose mast rather than life, and usually much to consternation of No 1 radar operator (who holds class 1 deep sea deck officer's master ticket). Still alive but looking back on first 20 years of x-channel crossings: I wish I knew then what I know now!

 

[nonitoo]

Yes, you are missing the point. If a ship is heading generally in my direction there is a risk of collision. I maintain, through lots of experience, that the level of risk cannot be assessed by the conventional means of taking bearings until the ship is relatively close. Try it for yourself.

I have and the tried and tested method works every time.

When encountering large vessels 1-2 miles is a very close point at which to make a decision.

Oh, and I do have a certain level of experience myself, not enough to say I know it all, but enough to have kept me out of trouble over the years.

I doubt if this variation of the thread is going anywhere now and perhaps returning to the OPs question is the best bet.

Tom

 

[BelleSerene]

Thank you

Thank you, all, for this advice.

 

[Heckler]

From the bridge of a large ship - yes it is !!

If I know that my deeply laden vessel has a turning radius of 0.3 mile in deep water, this is increased to about 0.5 mile in shallower water (The Channel), you are well within the "collision cannot be avoided by the action of the giving way vessel alone" - i.e.a very close quarters situation.

A small vessel coming within 1/2 to 1 mile, remaining on a constant bearing, and not knowing its intentions is a cause for great concern on the bridge.

YOU may know what you are intending but no-one else does.

Before mention is made of the use of VHF, the colregs are there to be used and their interpretation should not be qualified by input from another scource that only you may have access to. The large ship has no idea what information you have available to you and will assume very little.

Tom

I thought that was what the collision regs were for, that stand on vessels stood on and there was no need for any contact, the regs make contact uneccessary?
Stu

 

[PeterGibbs]

I've done Dover-Calais a few times each way and Calais-Eastbourne once. I'd rate it no more difficult than Solent to Cherbourg. The passages you are proposing will involve some major zig-zags to ensure that you cross the lanes at right angles.
!

Just to pick up on this statement, you do not cross at right angles, you present your boat at right angles - to achieve max visibility. Col regs.

You possibly mean that you are required to cross in the minimum time so as to present the least obstacle to RoW vessels, so in practice there will be no zig zagging.

PWG

 

[PeterGibbs]

It's easy to get more scared than inspired by a pilot book. So perhaps I can ask the voice of experience: is crossing the Dover Strait (specifically, Brighton - Boulogne and then Boulogne - Dover) a much bigger deal than crossing the central Solent?

As I see it, it's a question of anticipating how vessels in the regulated zones will behave. Then adapting your course within the regs as you cross.

Actually, those moving parallel to the lanes are relatively easy to predict, as their courses are clearly restricted. This assumes 2-4 miles of visibility: it's entirely another scene if you cannot see what's coming on.

In the Dover area you have to deal with the cross-lane traffic and this is, I find, more taxing. The ferries move fast, have their own published preferred routes, and have to adapt to traffic moving N-S. This can mean you have a ferry moving onto your position fast and alarmingly close. It is essential to set a clearing course within the regs and maintain it; taking fright and changing course with a ferry only minutes away will increase the danger to you. I have always found ferry skippers diligent and capable - passing close is not in itself the threat it might seem, providing you act predictably.

Final point, passing Dover harbour can be demanding, especially the E entrance. The almanacs and Dover control prefer a crossing point a mile or so off the harbour - presumably to avoid ferries manoeuvering in the entrance with small boats under their bows! Personally, I find this challenging because it opens the angle of attack, so to speak. It seems to me that crossing just after a ferry has entered Dover is the best course: there are then just 200m of exposed water and the surety that another ferry cannot exit within the time it takes to cross that gap. Dover control are very obliging and will guide you past this hurdle, I have found.

For first timers, I would recommend crossing away from the line of the ferries at Dover. And don't overlook those that shunt NE from Dover to Dunkirk etc (Norfolk line etc)

PWG

 

[Angele]

I thought that was what the collision regs were for, that stand on vessels stood on and there was no need for any contact, the regs make contact uneccessary?
Stu

..er, yes. Isn't that exactly the point that Nonitoo is making?

Whilst I accept that the COLREGS avoid the need to make contact, I actually think speaking to a person on the bridge of the Bl*&£y big container ship off the port bow and ascertaining that he really is going to alter his course to go behind you has a lot going for it. It is a huge weight off your mind that you are not going to get run down exercising your Stand On obligation under the rules.

Happened to me last summer south of the IoW on the way back from Cherbourg, but to the north of the shipping lanes:

"NYK Lines container ship in position xx yy. This is yacht Angele. Over."
"Angele, this is NYK Lines. Go ahead. Over"
"NYK Lines. I am the sailing yacht 2nm off your starboard bow. What is your intention?. Over"
"Angele, I will turn to starboard and pass behind your stern. Over"
"NYK Lines. Understood that you will turn to starboard. Thank you very much. Out"

... and then we could all relax.

(All done on ch.16 so that, if he did run me down after all, the whole conversation would have been recorded by Solent Coastguard and he would have been for it. A tiny consolation if Angele was then sitting on the seabed).

 

[Angele]

You possibly mean that you are required to cross in the minimum time so as to present the least obstacle to RoW vessels, so in practice there will be no zig zagging.

I think you mean ...so in practice there will be SOME zig zagging.

Having crossed the TSS in the quickest time by presenting your boat at right angles, when you leave the TSS you may no longer be on the rhumb line to your destination (ignoring the effect of tides). So, you have to change course to reach your destination. I think that is what DJE meant by "zig zagging".

 

[PeterGibbs]

I think you mean ...so in practice there will be SOME zig zagging.

Having crossed the TSS in the quickest time by presenting your boat at right angles, when you leave the TSS you may no longer be on the rhumb line to your destination (ignoring the effect of tides). So, you have to change course to reach your destination. I think that is what DJE meant by "zig zagging".

I understand your point, but the burden of the question deals with boat handling within the traffic schemes, and that was what I referred to - I thought I made that pretty clear. What happens in open water is not a matter of debate, I would have thought.......

PWG

 

[Heckler]

..er, yes. Isn't that exactly the point that Nonitoo is making?

Whilst I accept that the COLREGS avoid the need to make contact, I actually think speaking to a person on the bridge of the Bl*&£y big container ship off the port bow and ascertaining that he really is going to alter his course to go behind you has a lot going for it. It is a huge weight off your mind that you are not going to get run down exercising your Stand On obligation under the rules.

Happened to me last summer south of the IoW on the way back from Cherbourg, but to the north of the shipping lanes:

"NYK Lines container ship in position xx yy. This is yacht Angele. Over."
"Angele, this is NYK Lines. Go ahead. Over"
"NYK Lines. I am the sailing yacht 2nm off your starboard bow. What is your intention?. Over"
"Angele, I will turn to starboard and pass behind your stern. Over"
"NYK Lines. Understood that you will turn to starboard. Thank you very much. Out"

... and then we could all relax.

(All done on ch.16 so that, if he did run me down after all, the whole conversation would have been recorded by Solent Coastguard and he would have been for it. A tiny consolation if Angele was then sitting on the seabed).

Er,
You call the big ship? You then talk on 16? Isnt that breaking the rules?
Stu

 

[Angele]

Er,
You call the big ship? You then talk on 16? Isnt that breaking the rules?
Stu

...er no!!

Ch16 is known as the distress and safety channel (or something like that). A potential collision in less than 5 minutes is certainly a safety issue and there really isn't the time when every minute counts to spend another minute or so agreeing to switch to ch6 and then making contact again.

And I don't think Solent Coastguard would mind. After all, the whole conversation was over in about 1 minute.

You time how long it takes to speak the words in my radio conversation and work out how much shorter it would be if you replaced certain words with. "switch to ch. 6 ...... changing to ch. 6".

 

[shmoo]

Er,
You call the big ship? You then talk on 16? Isnt that breaking the rules?
Stu

They do it...

I keep it even shorter - again all on 16 - speak slowly.

"Bigship Bigship Bigship this is Witchfinder Witchfinder Witchfinder. I am the sailing boat 3 miles off your starboard bow. I will pass under your stern if you hold your course and speed."
"Witchfinder Bigship Thank you skipper, I will hold my course and speed, you pass under my stern"


Don't do it if there is ANY danger that they will mistake you for another yacht!

I find there is a higher chance of reply if you state your intentions up front. It's less like you are starting a negotiation.

 

[nonitoo]

..er, yes. Isn't that exactly the point that Nonitoo is making?

It was exactly that point I was making in the last paragraph of my posting.

Tom