Pictures of my keel leak, what should I do next?

[PhillM]

I think you need a professional to survey this for you. The LAST thing you want is the keel to come off. I know that sounds dramatic, but these pictures don't look good. You say you didn't pay much for the boat, so think carefully if this is really worth the money/hassle.

 

[doug748]

Seems a common problem, you have probably seen this:

http://j24forum.org/usa/faqs/verm_repair.htm

Taking the nuts and plates off and having a poke about might be worth doing. If the sump has not been filled with resin mix, that should fix it - as far as you want to fix an old, inexpensive day boat

 

[pvb]

Seems a common problem, you have probably seen this:

http://j24forum.org/usa/faqs/verm_repair.htm

Taking the nuts and plates off and having a poke about might be worth doing. If the sump has not been filled with resin mix, that should fix it - as far as you want to fix an old, inexpensive day boat

I believe the Westerly versions may have been built differently, but there are some interesting pics of removing vermiculite/resin in this link...

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?/topic/207514-another-j24-verm-job/

 

[doug748]

Good photos, should be very useful.

 

[Brentwales]

Thanks for those links. I had not seen those even after hours of searching and reading. That shows the vermiculite below the bilge boards where as mine doesn't have that, so appears the job has been remediated in the past on my boat already.

 

[Spyro]

Putting water in the bilge and seeing what runs out isn’t really an indication of how it will perform when at sea and heeled over. If you are going to get this done professionally it may cost more than the value of the boat. Another bodge might be the best option if you’re sure it’s structurally sound.

 

[FairweatherDave]

Putting water in the bilge and seeing what runs out isn’t really an indication of how it will perform when at sea and heeled over. If you are going to get this done professionally it may cost more than the value of the boat. Another bodge might be the best option if you’re sure it’s structurally sound.

True. But if you are on the boat you can mop up as you go along. But if you only visit the boat afloat on a mooring every couple of weeks a slow leak could have a big impact. I have had keelwork done professionally and it wasn't cheap so if there is a bodge that's what I would do. The problem is the cost of a launch and lift out if you haven't done a good bodge.

 

[Robert Wilson]

Bit of a drift, sorry, but:-
Not truly applicable in the OP's case but I feel worth bringing to the attention of the forumites.
I'd be interested to hear how I might get at my keel bolts in order to undertake a keel drop (God forbid).

I have five keel bolts, the for'ard three are easy to get at under the cabin floor, the fourth is deepish in very narrow space infront of/below the companionway.
The fifth, in similar confined lateral space to the fourth is deep below and well back from the front of the engine; which is in itself is in a very restricted space below the cockpit. The engine can only be accessed from from the cabin.

How the heck would I get at #5? (Engine out, cut hole in cockpit deck?, or what?)

 

[iamajc]

Bit of a drift, sorry, but:-
Not truly applicable in the OP's case but I feel worth bringing to the attention of the forumites.
I'd be interested to hear how I might get at my keel bolts in order to undertake a keel drop (God forbid).

I have five keel bolts, the for'ard three are easy to get at under the cabin floor, the fourth is deepish in very narrow space infront of/below the companionway.
The fifth, in similar confined lateral space to the fourth is deep below and well back from the front of the engine; which is in itself is in a very restricted space below the cockpit. The engine can only be accessed from from the cabin.

How the heck would I get at #5? (Engine out, cut hole in cockpit deck?, or what?)

Hard to tell without seeing the bolts involved, it could involve producing your own special tool, sacrificing a spanner in the process, ie heating it up and bending it into a crank shape, or cutting and having it welded into into a shape that allows it to slide under the engine and onto the bolt head whilst leaving yourself something to grasp. The forth bolt in a deep and narrow space may just require a socket with extension bar to extend it above the obstructions.
The spanner will be weakened by the heat and may fail, it may work.
As an engineer it is common to see this type of thing, the builders problem was securing the keel and installing an engine, probably in that order... not removing the keel.
Something like this may also work. https://www.cromwell.co.uk/shop/han...3-8inch/f/4775?query=open ended torque wrench

 

[rszemeti]

He only bought the boat last week! The insurance company might not play ball...

If he had a survey then he should notify his surveyor and claim on their insurance, as a fault of this nature should have been spotted by the surveyor.

 

[rszemeti]

Putting water in the bilge and seeing what runs out isn’t really an indication of how it will perform when at sea and heeled over. If you are going to get this done professionally it may cost more than the value of the boat. Another bodge might be the best option if you’re sure it’s structurally sound.

If I was sure it was not structural (and looking at it, I would think it is not structural) I would use a flexible sealant such as Sikaflex 291i on both sides and just use it for a year.

As it is a new boat to the owner, he *probably* had a survey, so I would notify the surveyor of the claim on the surveyors insurance and then just get on an sail it for the year. By the next season, if it hadn't leaked I would probably have stopped worrying about it.

 

[Daydream believer]

I have five keel bolts, the for'ard three are easy to get at under the cabin floor, the fourth is deepish in very narrow space infront of/below the companionway.
The fifth, in similar confined lateral space to the fourth is deep below and well back from the front of the engine; which is in itself is in a very restricted space below the cockpit. The engine can only be accessed from from the cabin.

How the heck would I get at #5? (Engine out, cut hole in cockpit deck?, or what?)

On my first 2 boats the keel bolts were studs fitted into plain holes. At the bottom of the hole in the keel was a pocket. In this pocket was a nut on the stud. The pocket was then filled in with filler.
I am not sure if a spanner could be fitted to the nut, due to lack of space, because it was probably tightened from above. However, you could be lucky & find similar pockets. If so you could shear the nut with a chisel, or perhaps even loosen it from there. Then if the keel slid down the stud you might just get it off.
It is probably set in linseed putty & lead paint but you might be lucky if the weight of the keel worked in your favour.

 

[Spyro]

If he had a survey then he should notify his surveyor and claim on their insurance, as a fault of this nature should have been spotted by the surveyor.

#11, he didn't have a survey done.

 

[Robert Wilson]

Hard to tell without seeing the bolts involved, it could involve producing your own special tool,
As an engineer it is common to see this type of thing, the builders problem was securing the keel and installing an engine, probably in that order... not removing the keel.
Something like this may also work. https://www.cromwell.co.uk/shop/han...3-8inch/f/4775?query=open ended torque wrench

Thinking about the hopefully never-to-be-needed task I reckon the only way would be removal of the engine and hope that a long socket tool could be manipulated through the engine compartment and down to the stud-top nut; which I'll bet is well and truly seized
The nut is over an arm's length down into the bilge
That clever "sideways" tool looks useful, but the length of square-ended rod needed to twist the nut would need to be extremely rigid, given the length involved. And that's if the tool could be artfully positioned over the nut

I am not sure if a spanner could be fitted to the nut, due to lack of space, because it was probably tightened from above. However, you could be lucky & find similar pockets. If so you could shear the nut with a chisel, or perhaps even loosen it from there. Then if the keel slid down the stud you might just get it off.
It is probably set in linseed putty & lead paint but you might be lucky if the weight of the keel worked in your favour.

Are you suggesting there's a nut at the bottom of the stud, and access would need to be by hacking through the keel to get at it?
I'm not sure I've understood your suggestion.

Thanks to you both, all advice gratefully accepted.

 

[Daydream believer]

Thinking about the hopefully never-to-be-needed task I reckon the only way would be removal of the engine and hope that a long socket tool could be manipulated through the engine compartment and down to the stud-top nut; which I'll bet is well and truly seized
The nut is over an arm's length down into the bilge
That clever "sideways" tool looks useful, but the length of square-ended rod needed to twist the nut would need to be extremely rigid, given the length involved. And that's if the tool could be artfully positioned over the nut


Are you suggesting there's a nut at the bottom of the stud, and access would need to be by hacking through the keel to get at it?
.

Basically - yes!!There was a purpose made pocket in the side of the keel which was later filled with filler.
I have seen this on other keels as well
If you think about it, it avoids having to drill & tap the cast iron to thread the stud into a hole which could be awkward and time consuming.
A hole is made in the casting process & the stud just dropped down & a nut put on the bottom in the cast pocket.

 

[Robert Wilson]

Basically - yes!!There was a purpose made pocket in the side of the keel which was later filled with filler.
I have seen this on other keels as well
If you think about it, it avoids having to drill & tap the cast iron to thread the stud into a hole which could be awkward and time consuming.
A hole is made in the casting process & the stud just dropped down & a nut put on the bottom in the cast pocket.

That's interesting, and I didn't know it - I wonder how many others don't know it too?
Locating the pocket may be a problem. Sadly there isn't a Javelin30 Owners Association and the builder, Marcon, does not exist any more.
From memory and photographs, there is nothing obvious on the outside of the keel which might indicate where it might be.

I'll have a word with my usual surveyor, he might be able to help.

Thanks again.

 

[Daydream believer]

There is not a pocket on my current boat, but owners of older boats might see the thread & it may be of use to them.
Good luck with yours.

 

[Robert Wilson]

There is not a pocket on my current boat, but owners of older boats might see the thread & it may be of use to them.
Good luck with yours.

:encouragement:

 

[Akestor]

to the OP- I assume that boat sits on the keel. You could ask the yard to lift the boat and see if there is a void between hull and keel when the keel is hanging free. That should tell much about the size of the damage.