pick the nits off this thesis!

[Birdseye]

Over the last 20 years, GRP boats have not depreciated very much. Nor have they gone to the scrap heap - GRP is very long lasting. So the yearly output of the factories has been absorbed by increasing boat ownership and prices have remained stable. But the economy is cooling, marinas are getting full and, mooring costs are going up faster than incomes. So is the flow of new sailors going to be enough to match the increase in the boat pool in future?

At the same time, environmental issues will make it increasingly difficult to dispose of low value old second hand boats. This will be compounded by an increasing trend towards owning a boat like a car - buy a new Benny and part ex it for another new one after 3 years. Brokers tell me that this is already happening.

The net result of these trends will be increasing depreciation of second hand boats leading to further increase in boat ownership costs. Could be that 20 year old boats end up like 20 year old cars being worth nothing much. In which case, will the punter be willing to pay marina fees for them?

So is now the time to switch from ownership to chartering. What do you think?

 

[powerskipper]

But there is nothing like been able to say
"It's Mine"

 

[wicked]

I think the answer is to own a cheap boat with low running costs and to charter as well.

I have a 20 year old small 26' yacht which is cheap, fast, fun, seaworthy enough to zoom over the channel for the weekend and with a lifting keel so you can keep it on an inexpensive drying mooring and also get to the nice places nobody else can. I have to agree - it's pointless paying ridiculously high marina charges for boats worth less than £20K.

By doing my regular sailing 'on the cheap' I can then afford to charter a much larger AWB for holidays etc. which I certainly couldn't afford to run let alone buy in the first place. I certainly can see an increase in the demand for chartering.

If you want to dispose of an old low value boat all you need to do is padlock it to the mooring chain - that way someone is sure to steal it for you, so the problem goes away!.

In summary - don't swap from ownership to chartering - do both!.

Dave

 

[Becky]

The GRP resin is oil-based, and oil is running out slowly. Its cost is certainly rising, which could gradually push up the cost of new boats, which will conversely be built lighter and less robustly to keep the price down. Could be said to be happening already. Which will then make older yachts a better buy because of their greater quality of build. Which will keep up the second-hand value of well-known makes. Hopefully.

 

[snowleopard]

a 20-year-old car is generally rusty and unreliable. a 20-year-old boat if looked after will be not far off good as new. prices may fall and a few more small manufacturers will go to the wall but used boat prices aren't going to plummet.

 

[Sea Devil]

But part of the fun of sailing is to own the boat - I just love messing about in boats - I love trying things on the boat - I love knowing I can step aboard any time I like and set sail for .... Australia, Caribbean, Yarmouth IOW, or just to the next anchorage. I just love the total independance having a boat gives me - Any where, any time and it is only up to me.

 

[ShipsWoofy]

But, and this is not supposed to sound crass. There are more 20 year old boats I would rather own than many of the new boats currently being built. Many modern boats are built for non sailors, yes, they are.

Otherwise, why does a 30ft yacht have 43hp auxiliaries? No sea berths, no sail lockers, rounded saloon roofs just waiting for someone to lose their footing when going forward.

I think, it will be like cars as you say, the modern high volume production boats will become worthless. The proven classics, like the Contessas, Moodies, Sadlers will hold or gain value. An e-type is never going to fall to the same value as an escort for example.

Just my humble opinion.

 

[capt_courageous]

We had a stroll round Lymington Yacht Haven yesterday - lovely day. What struck me was the size of the boats laid up ashore. 20 or so years ago a 32 footer was a serious size. Say a Nich 32 or a Contessa 32. Yesterday there were very few in the yard less than 32 feet. The 'pool' of boats is not only increasing but it is changing too.
There are quite a few older boats in our club which are worth nothing just because they are impossible to sell. They are still around only because we dont charge a lot for moorings. Also there are lots of very sad looking boats in some parts of Portsmouth harbour.
We have been banging on about marina costs but I guess some whose boat cost £100,000 MAY think £4000 a year fees is reasonable. Someone with a 20 year old boat worth say £15000 certainly wont.
Around here it costs £30 to get rid of a car legally but I dont know of any way of disposing of an old GRP boat.
I would not charter because I like MY boat. Power skipper and Bambola are right. I dont know about Australia though.

 

[Goodge]

But how much is it worth to say 'its mine' ?

Marina fees, insurance, maintenance, depreciation all adds up to a lot of money.

£5,000 - £6,000 per year will get you a fair bit of chartering which can be taken in different destinations around the world.

You can crew on other peoples boats from time to time and if you do own a smaller yacht or dinghy even you probably get as much sailing as you can manage. Time often being the main constraint rather than money.

Presently I crew on my friends boat, (he always needs crew), I race my own dinghy and charter from time to time wherever I want. This suits me fine and with my family commitments that I have at present, I don't feel I'm missing out on anything.

Ironically I have considered buying an AWB, but if I did it would go into charter management to offset the costs that we're moaning about and also because I know I would not be able to use it for more than one weekend in three.

 

[Birdseye]

Must agree with Captain Courageous. At our club just under half the boats are never launched - there is no storage charge so old boats are just left to rot. Which they dont. And even disposing of GRP dinghies is a problem - we had one plonker burn one a couple of years ago, and getting rid of the burnt chopped strand matt was a real hazard requiring masks and protective kit. I reckon that boats like old Westerly 25s are rapidly becoming liabilities rather than assets. We recently had to give a deceased members boat away - could find no one who was prepared to buy it!

Cant agree about old GRP boats being better built - osmosis for example is primarily a problem of old boats. Let alone the worn out winches, corroding masts, scratches and scars on wood an hull, water in the deck balsa etc. My last boat was 20 years old and to say it was better than new would be to deny human progress - and to behave like a boat broker!

I dont see cheap swinging moorings as an answer either. Its in the nature of bureaucrats to want to tidy the untidy, and we have an ever growing corps of eco warriors. How long before we start to get forced into marinas and casual river moorings are banned in the name of the bird life? Not as daft as you might think - 2 of my 3 clubs have moorings in SSSIs already.

 

[Footpad]

I don't think chartering gives the same satisfaction as owning either but I can't quite follow some of the lines of argument here? I'm not sure what the relationship between resale value and mooring costs has to do with it though? If I have a boat worth £100k and mooring fees of £4k it costs me more to sail to Weymouth than an older boat worth nothing (as some of you predict) the difference is the interest on your loan or the depreciation on the investment through inflation. I look forward to buying a fifteen year old Westerly Fulmar for a couple of grand and taking off.

 

[ShipsWoofy]

People buying bigger and bigger boats

Is this sustainable?

What will happen during the next recession?

What is the limit for two 'older' people in size?

Will the industry collapse and revert to smaller boats in the future?

Are smaller boats more fun, really?

 

[walter_E]

Re: People buying bigger and bigger boats

Birdseye, brokers were saying exactly the same thing 20 years ago and will go on saying it for the next 100 im sure. I think anybody buying a brand new tupperware boat from one of the high production factories and then putting it into a marina must be mental or have more money than sense. I could show you GRP boats 30+ years old that are in better condition and more seaworthy than any of your Bavs or Bennys etc and have been kept on mud berths and sailed and not left to rot in marinas because it is too expensive to keep there and maintain them.
You wouldnt be trying to force the prices of older boats down by scaremongering now would you ?

 

[capt_courageous]

Footpad
What I meant was that someone who has enough money to be able to spend £100000 on a boat may regard a £4000 fee as reasonable. Whereas my boat cost a lot less and only a few years marina fees would cost more than the boat.
Birdseye
A couple of years ago the Hamble river authorities were suggesting just such a 'tidying up' of the river.

 

[cameronke]

Re: People buying bigger and bigger boats

"Are smaller boats more fun, really?"

You canna wack a wee Laser for laughs !!!!!!!!!

Regards
Cameron

 

[jonjo]

Iron ore is not running out so how do you explain the thin metal sheet used in modern cars?

 

[Birdseye]

And the modern cars built from lighter sheet metal are very much better quality and longer lasting than the old ones were. Morris Oxford anyone?

And no Walter , I'm not trying to drive the price of old boats down. I'm trying to decide whether to buy a new one, and depreciation matters to me. It seems to me that the pattern hitherto (no/little depn in cash terms) is insustainable in the face of potential oversupply (more boats than moorings) and cultural change (new benny every three years type sailors) .

 

[fireball]

The reason we have bought a yacht is because we intend to use it ... if intended usage was low then we would probably charter.
I couldn't charter out my own yacht (unless I had a fleet!) because I like being able to leave my own things where I want to and not follow all the rules & regs.

 

[jonjo]

Re: People buying bigger and bigger boats

[ QUOTE ]
I think anybody buying a brand new tupperware boat from one of the high production factories and then putting it into a marina must be mental or have more money than sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

Would you submit that as a signed statement to my employer and doctor please, then I can take the next 6 months off as sick leave and sail my new Bavaria from its Solent marina.

No doubt you can identify a more solid 30 year old yacht but if it is as seaworthy as you claim then in those 30 years the yacht would have been substantially remanufactured as follows:

£5000 = 1 or 2 osmosis jobs
£3500 = Topside respray
£6000 = New engine.
£1500 = Major rudder renovation

Plus

Two sets of standing rigging
Two sets of working sails.
Upgrade to furling foresail gear.
Complete replacement of ground tackle.
New anchor windlass.
Complete upgrade to mainsail reefing gear and/or new boom.
New nav lights all round.
3 Cookers.
2 toilets.
New hatches and alloy portholes all round.
All new soft furnishings.
Replacement switch panel.
New head lining.
1 or 2 new generators of electronics.
3 VHF's.
Some new winches.
New stern gland.
Keel refastening.

And even after all that you won't switch the engine off in less than 10 knots of wind.