Phantom 46 Volvo TAMD75P Oil Pressure & Blown Engine

EasyT

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Dear All,

I am new to this site and would welcome advice on the following subject.

I was lucky enough to be able to purchase a new Phantom 46 in September 2003. When I collected her, and during the hand-over period I noted that the Starboard Engine Oil Pressure was considerably higher than the Port. I was informed by the dealer that this situation was fine and completely normal. Over the past 9 months the differential got worse and worse (example at 2500 rpm Port @ 90psi, Stbd @ 150psi). After much complaining they agreed there was a problem and replace the manifold. Three weeks later, and whilst making way, the Starboard engine "let go", pumping oil into the engine bay.

Luckily the engine was still under warranty, and was repaired. I was told the number 2 cylinder was the problem, and had become highly polished and the piston had "suffered a catastrophic failure". The agent had her for 5 weeks, engine out and replaced/rebuild the faulty components. I requested a replacement engine, which was declined. A Volvo rep was sent out to inspect, but I was never given a reason for the engine failure, in fact they said they didn't know what had caused it. I was repeatedly told that the oil pressure issue was unrelated, but was told during the sea trial the oil pressures had now equalised (funny that). I took her out for my own sea trial this week to find a 50% differential in the oil pressure between both engines and the stbd ran 20 to 30 degrees hotter.

I am being overly paranoid, but everyone else I have spoken to has shown real surprise and other TAMD users have said their readings are almost identical.

The warranty runs out in 1 month and I am on the brink of taking it legal. Could anyone recommend a good independent engine surveyor (especially one that has already managed to keep the manufacturer honest). I would prefer a new engine, but I am getting the brush off from the manufacturer and the dealer.

Comments/Advice PLEASE.


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Its_Only_Money

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Re: Phantom 46 Volvo TAMD75P Oil Pressure & Blown

My advice would be be to go legal now - then decide which/who you want need as expert witnesses. Overly high pressure is normally incorrect tolerances, sticking relief valve or wrong oil but either way both engines should run similarly and within factory tolerances. It sound's like you need to formally reject the starboard engine if you still have the ability to do so, a lawyer will advise but I haven't been this route so I am sorry I can't recommend one.

You'll need to collect as much evidence as possible that you recorded the oil pressure differential and advised the dealer as soon as possible after purchase though....

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Colin_S

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If I remember correctly, the paperwork that came with my friend's boat mentioned a 2 year warranty on his Volvo engine so you may have a bit more time on your hands.

Based on my experiences in the motor trade years ago, I think you may have shot yourself in the foot by letting them repair the engine and not digging your heels in for a new one. What I would at least expect is an extension to your warranty to cover the period of loss of use and confidence in the product. My sister had a few problems with a nearly new car, including needing a replacement short engine. They got a 12 month extension to the 3 year waranty.

Regarding the different oil pressures, I would expect the hotter engine to have a lower pressure than the cooler one as the oil would be thinner at the higher temp. Your seems totally the opposite (assuming Stbd engine still has the higher pressure). Are the pressures the same when first starting from cold?

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EasyT

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Re: Phantom 46 Volvo TAMD75P Oil Pressure & Blown

Yep! Think your right about going legal.

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Not at Chichester. However she's heading back that way tomorrow.<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by EasyT on 16/08/2004 22:59 (server time).</FONT></P>
 

Moose

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Re: Phantom 46 Volvo TAMD75P Oil Pressure & Blown

Ok, I was sure I saw your boat (assuming your user name ties up with your boat name) opposite my boat a few weeks ago.

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EasyT

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Re: Phantom 46 Volvo TAMD75P Oil Pressure & Blown

Thats right, she was there having the engine rebuilt, returned to me at the begining of August. This weekend was the first time I could complete my sea trial.

For the previous post the starboard engine is running hotter and higher oil pressure than the port.

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Colin_S

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Re: Phantom 46 Volvo TAMD75P Oil Pressure & Blown

Perhaps there's a blockage in one of the oilways causing the high pressure and starving parts of the engine of oil. Lack of lubrication could be causing the excess heat.

Hopefully some other forumites with same / similar engines can post some pressure readings to give an idea of what the norm is.

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Its_Only_Money

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Re: Phantom 46 Volvo TAMD75P Oil Pressure & Blown

Current practice doesn't seem to rule out rejection because you have allowed a repair, this can now be deemed giving the manufacturer/dealer a fair chance to rectify the fault whilst you gain information on whether to accept the vessel, I think here you may need to reject the whole vessel, I'm not sure you can reject part of it. Anyway, get some legal advice from someone familiar with the sale of goods act. I bet it gets your dealer's attention if you start proposing to reject the whole vessel and demand a full refund....

Any blockage should cause the oil pressure relief valve to open, you simply shouldn't be able to get the oil pressure any higher than the relief valve setting so I'd suspect this is at fault - although it may not be all that is at fault or the root cause.

Sale of Goods Act refers to latent defects that existed at the time of manufacture and its protection lasts for 6(!) years.

Legal, then expert opinion in that order would be my advice.

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EasyT

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Re: Phantom 46 Volvo TAMD75P Oil Pressure & Blown

Thanks Simon, I have already called my lawyer and asked him to start looking at the history - As you say rejection of the whole vessel could be the only legal course of action - especially when you see the list of other 'snags' I've had to deal with. However, I would look for either a replacement (even another brand), as costs have increased for new boats, or a refund plus compensation. However being a realist I guess I will have to compromise somewhere down the line.

The easiest thing for the dealer to do would have been to arrange for a replacement engine (which would have overcome some of the lost confidence my family and I have in the product), but I feel I am caught in a finger pointing exercise by the dealer and engine manufacturer doing the usual "well we've got your money now so........." The dealers CEO had Volvo inspect the engine the last time, I have asked to copies of the paperwork - job sheets, oil analysis, volvo report ....... needless to say nothing received yet, may be I can get them with a Court Order?

As I am not an expert in the working of a diesel engine, I had to believe them when they said they could fix it, otherwise I would have dug my heels and been prepared to write off this season.

What a sad indictment of what should be one of the pleasurable purchases of my life....

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Its_Only_Money

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Re: Phantom 46 Volvo TAMD75P Oil Pressure & Blown

Your lawyer will probably start by asking what you want to achieve, after all it may be perfectly possible to wheel out the Big Gun of the Sale of Goods Act, clean and polish it in full view of the dealer and, once you have his complete and financially involved attention, put it back in the corner and start by seeing what they offer, your lawyer will keep you safe with words such as "without predjudice" so that you could, for example come out with the same boat but with a new engine + say 2yrs warranty on the new motor and maybe an additional warranty on the Port engine for goodwill etc etc....... but you'l only get one go to accept the vessel.

Give some thought as to what your best and worst outcomes should be in prep for discussion with the eagle.

Good luck!

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Simon
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oldgit

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Re: Phantom 46 Volvo TAMD75P Oil Pressure & Blown

While unable to comment on this particular engine,can assure you that most twin set ups run within a degree or two of each other.Obviously minor differences occur maybe due to hot water systems etc and over time wear causing one engine to do a bit more work.
If you have been reading the forums for any period of time you will find all sorts of examples of engine problems on new and nearly new boats.In many cases the dealer response was tardy and grudging to say the least and it would would seem that the more expensive the boat the more difficult to resolve the problem.
I suspect a little exploration using the forum search will produce information that may leave you in no doubt that others have trodden this path before.

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I don't really know about these engines, but I do know my "sale of goods" act. You have brought this obvious defect to the attention of the dealer (rememeber, its the business that sold it to you that has the responsibility of managing any warranty) within the warranty period. Therefore, if not completed satisfactorily, you still have redress.

Clearly you paid out heaps of money for this new boat - stop giving them the benefit of any doubt and get angry.

Get an engine surveyor, you can always get the cost back when you prove them wrong. Get a relevent lawyer and invest in an hour of his/her time. Take both to the dealer and and don't just threaten them with it - use the contents to start proceedings. The proceedings can always be halted when the dealer sees sense.

Do it today!!

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mjf

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I think you find in the paperwork that a 2 yr volvo warranty applies to UK sold boats.

You do not mention the hrs on both engines at hand over / now. Was she brand new? ie ex factory. How were the engines run in?

My Tamd's run between 60/90 (the lower end after a run when hot and at idle revs). The engine that heats the domestic hot water always seems to run 20 degrees cooler than its sister, I am told this is normal due to extra pipework.



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Talbot

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<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>

The engine that heats the domestic hot water always seems to run 20 degrees cooler than its sister, I am told this is normal due to extra pipework.


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This will be due to two things:

The extra water in the system on that engine (because of the extra pipework).

The cooling effect of the transfer of heat into the hot water container.

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EasyT

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I will pull out the warranty paperwork, but was informed that about 18 months ago Volvo changed the warranty period down to 1 year.

The engines at hand over had about 10 hours (should have documented it - hindsight is a wonderful thing). She was brand new - albeit in stock boat at the dealers/distributors.

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adarcy

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Re: Different temp

Not happy about that or the explanation.

Of course, while it is warming up the circulating water around the engine, the one that heats the calorifier will take longer to get to running temp. But afterwards, when the hot water has been heated, why should the thermostat allow it to run cooler?

On our boat the water temp only rises to about 50 while trogging down the river so we tend to put a bit of throttle on but not plane until it comes up to over 60 but throughout that time and when up on the plane (and the whole of the rest of that day) the temperatures are within a degree or so. I see no reason why another radiator in the calorifier running the same fresh water cooled by the thermostat opening to the raw water heat exchanger should make any difference compared with the other engine.

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Yes i think you are right about the warrenty.
In 2002, Volvo gave a 2yr warranty with there engines, and Mercruiser gave 3 yrs. But at the start of 2003 Volvo reduced it to 1year, so Mercruiser decieded they didn't need to offer a 3yr warranty anylonger and reduced theres to 2 yrs. Right at the time i bought a new boat at LBS last year./forums/images/icons/crazy.gif So i only got 2 yrs with my Mercruiser.

Hope you get it sorted.



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I recommend you get solicitor involved so that there are some very directly worded letters on the record sooner rather than later. You may still have the right to reject the boat entirely, depending on other factors - permitting a repair attempt is not fatal to right of rejection. You do need to establish/assert a solid legal foundation from which to negotiate whatever solution will satisfy you - whether that's a proper repair, new engine, new boat, or refund.

You might also try joining the RYA who (I think) provide a legal advice service to members. Their resident solicito, Edmund Whelan, is well up (obviously) on marine matters including application of SoGA to boat purchases. Also find (I think) last month's MBM which carried an article by him on this very subject (right of rejection).

Hope things work out. PM me if you want to discuss.





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EasyT

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Does anyone know of a website where I can obtain a technical specification for the 75's...

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