petrol v deisel. facts

Re: Honesty please!

No you have lost the plot /forums/images/icons/wink.gif If for example a 22ft boat with a diesel is £41,040 and the petrol £30,250 who on earth is going to pay all that extra when it is 2 or 3 yrs old and they can still get a brand new one much cheaper with a petrol option. They will have no warranty, everything will be used and older. Another thing is who would pay £41,040 for a cuddy diesel, when they could get a brand new 24ft boat, 4 berth with shower, full galley, microwave, hob, cooker e.t.c. for £42.440, and who would pay £53,250 for this option in diesel? I would dearly like to know the answer to these questions.

<hr width=100% size=1><font color=purple> "You only see what you recognise, and you only recognise what you know" <font color=purple>
 
Re: Honesty please!

So how does an Olly hull compare with the John Bennett one on my Holiday ......

I guess only one way to find out ...... unless someone knows ........

<hr width=100% size=1>Adrian <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.arweb.co.uk/argallery/kelisha>Kelisha</A> I never snub anyone accidentally
 
Re: Honesty please!

All a bit difficult at the moment and can't say much, but the prices are accurate.

<hr width=100% size=1><font color=purple> "You only see what you recognise, and you only recognise what you know" <font color=purple>
 
Petrol has no place at sea

There, I said it!

Will your petrol (nice volatile liquid) engine still be running 3/4 submerged when desperately running to get home. Will you be carrying a spare ECU or test kits to attempt to diagnose simple non start faults at sea.

If you are moving from a day boat to a sea going craft then think very carefully about your arguments.

Diesel = simple, Air + compression + fuel, add the three it will run, to a fashion if there is a problem.

Petrol = fuel + electrics + gizmos + air + ECU - damp - cold , most faults will kill the engine.

One day, I hope for your sake it wont happen, but the sea will change from a nice uppy downy place to a place where you may start searching for a God; Then you will be happy you bought the most reliable powerplant available as it throbs its way home taking all the stick you are giving it.

For someone who continually lectures everyone on their lack-lustre safety on board you seem to be quite happy to compromise yours over price of fuel.

Diesels are more reliable, there is no denying it, more powerful, and will take a lot more wellie should you need to abuse them.

No argument IMO

oh, nearly forgot /forums/images/icons/smile.gif /forums/images/icons/smile.gif /forums/images/icons/smile.gif /forums/images/icons/smile.gif /forums/images/icons/smile.gif /forums/images/icons/smile.gif /forums/images/icons/smile.gif /forums/images/icons/smile.gif /forums/images/icons/smile.gif /forums/images/icons/smile.gif /forums/images/icons/smile.gif /forums/images/icons/smile.gif /forums/images/icons/smile.gif /forums/images/icons/smile.gif /forums/images/icons/smile.gif /forums/images/icons/smile.gif /forums/images/icons/smile.gif /forums/images/icons/smile.gif /forums/images/icons/smile.gif /forums/images/icons/smile.gif /forums/images/icons/smile.gif /forums/images/icons/smile.gif /forums/images/icons/smile.gif /forums/images/icons/smile.gif /forums/images/icons/smile.gif /forums/images/icons/smile.gif /forums/images/icons/smile.gif /forums/images/icons/smile.gif /forums/images/icons/smile.gif /forums/images/icons/smile.gif /forums/images/icons/smile.gif


<hr width=100% size=1>Julian

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.topcatsail.co.uk>Top Cat Homepage</A>
 
Re: Honesty please!

The 2150 with the diesel is underpowered for a sportsboat if performance is what you are after. One of the guys in the club has one.

It will cruise quite happily at the same speed as the petrol, but doesn't have the ooomph of the petrol which gives the acceleration and top speed.

You won't see the same fun factor, but if cruising, you won't see much difference.

<hr width=100% size=1>There is no such thing as "fun for the whole family."
 
Re: Petrol has no place at sea

Sorry, but specious arguements.

Show me a diesel engine that will achieve the power that sportsboats (I'm talking sub 25' here) with petrol engines achieve. All the high power sportsboats have petrol engines. High power diesels are simply too big and heavy for small boats. They'll crack it in a few years I'm sure, as they have in the car market, but for now, if you want to go fast in a small sportsboat, petrol

I've never had a reliability problem, and nor have many other petrol engined users who take their boats out in all sorts of conditions.

There are pro's and con's for both, but I'm getting a little fed up with the posts who won't accept that both have a place in boating

If a sportsboats engine is three quarter submerged, it's sunk! Won't matter if diesel or petrol.

<hr width=100% size=1>There is no such thing as "fun for the whole family."
 
Re: Petrol has no place at sea

Whoops! Read the whole thread by mistake thinking I was in the pantomime forum /forums/images/icons/blush.gif.

Anyway, while I am here I think the whole thing is a no brainer. Assuming new pleasure vessels, then:-

All displacement vessels - Diesel

Under around 20 foot planing hull - Always Petrol (unless some very particular reason not too)

Over around 25/28 footish planing hull - Always diesel (unless very particular reason not too)

20 to 25/28 footish planing hull, sports dayboat, sheltered water and close to refuge (within 20 miles), power to weight of prime importance - PETROL

20 to 25/28 footish planing hull, sports dayboat, sheltered water and close to refuge (within 20 miles), fuel cost more important because of high hours than ultimate performance - DIESEL (at cost of ultimate performance)

20 to 25/28 footish planing hull, sports dayboat or not sports dayboat, and not sheltered water or not close to refuge - DIESEL

I do not think that the above parameters should NORMALLY be strayed out of, except maybe a bit of flexibility in the length according to the particular boat and its service, and according to ones own views on the lesser safety of petrol. For example, where I live (Tasman Sea coast, can cut up quick, and not many other boats around for any rescue) and I wanted to do more than just run up and down beside the beach, I think I would go with diesel down to around 18 foot. But if limited to Wellington Harbour or few miles outside (on calm days) then 20 footish for petrol would seem fine to me even though I am not that excited about the way petrol can burn a boat.

Within the above, in my view, only the operator can make the decision that is best for him (or her). Hopefully it is an informed one, based on service, not one based on one eyedness. Julian qualified his view by stating along the lines "if you are moving from a day boat to a seagoing craft" and I think that what he says is then correct for boats over around 20 foot.

John


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Re: Petrol has no place at sea

Jools, I'd quite agree with your arguement about 10 years ago. But and this is where powerboats are different from yachts. To get the sort of powers from diesels to GENUINELY match petrols then they ain't simple. The typical high output diesel used in the sort of boat we are talking about will be as complex if not more so than it's petrol. Latest diesels are common rail in other words have similar injection to a FI petrol donk. However rail pressure is typically around 10s of thousand PSI rather than 30-50 on petrol. Diesel will be either Turbo or supecharged or both (KAD range). And because of that will be intercooled which involves another heat exchanger and all the extra pipe work that entails. Have a look at the Merc 1.7DTi if you want the above confirmed. So I don't think that in terms of reliability Diesels win any more. Also "Nice volatile liquid" been here before the USA have zillions of petrols and they find most boat fires are electrical QED. More to the point I've seen close to a high pressure diesel fire and it is very difficult to put out. Also the average guy in the street has a vague idea of how a petrol works but zilch knowledge of diesels even simple ones let alone what I am talking about above (see some of the questions on here for a start). Finally diesels are actually quite fussy in the sense that they need biggish batteries to start (glowplugs + Higher compression) and Won't tolerate air leaks in the fuel lines.

<hr width=100% size=1>Jim

Draco 2500
 
Re: Honesty please!

Not i wasn't trying the boats in a view to buying, but my friend was. I just fancied a Go.

You are very correct both the 2150 and the 2460, were vastly underpowered IMHO, i bought my current boat after i had tried them, I do really go for the fun Factor. At that time i was not looking for a Diesel anyway.

But i was inpressed with the little1800, wuth the diesel, It certainly had fun factor.

Hopefully in a few years i may trade up to a bigger cruiser, and might get something like a big Yanmar in it.



<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://arweb.co.uk/argallery/alistair?&page=1> My Pictures, Please take a look.</A>
 
Re: Petrol has no place at sea

Well done, I am of the same opinion as you and Brendan, Jools as far as I am concerned is talking out of his arse, he is so blinkered it is unbelieveable /forums/images/icons/wink.gif Well I am stuck in the brackets of diesel to petrol choice e.g. 21 - 28ft, I can imagine jools in his sinking boat with his long grey beard, dressing gown and feet up with slippers on, on his submerged engine /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif Well that's not for me. I am still young enough to enjoy the exileration of speed, there is no way I am going watch Duncan zip past me in his 240hp diesel, that wouldn't be right /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif As far as the cost of petrol goes, OK some months last year cost £800, but some far less, so the average is pretty lowish, say £400 a month over the year, I feel that is a bargain for the enjoyment I have had, some people pay that per month in interest on their boat loans /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

If I spend £80k more on a boat, like the one SWMBO wants, that makes £400 a month a bargain. So do I have a boat 21 - 28ft that I can throw as much money as I could possibly think at, and not get too worried, because it can never be more than the £80k or go bigger and have the concerns of more maintenance, and fuel consumption e.t.c. I cannot believe that I could have more fun than I did this year, OK nice to have room to sleep on i and a full galley (but no use when not attached to shore power), but with a very fast boat you can be back at the marina for the night and back out the next day, the odd night away with a big enough boat would be OK as well.

I never want to be in a position that I can't do exactly what I want to with a boat, at the moment I am getting the bargain of a lifetime, cost wise for my boating, should I compromise that for some bigger and less fun? I also have to consider I am moored at Chatham, I can be down there after work in 40 mins and potter or fly about in the week, at the weekends I can tow and be anywhere in the country (within reason), Poole Soton e.t.c. I can only tow 2.5 tonne, so any more than that means just about legal to tow with the correct vehicle, but I would need to spend £25k or so on a suitable vehicle. When you get to that stage you may as well go large and get an even bigger boat as it would be cheaper to have it transported as and when required.

For the cost of a £3.5k trailer and a £25k vehicle, you could find someone to transport that a fair few times for you. OK perhaps I do research things quite a bit, but so far I have got it spot on, just that for reasons beyond my control I am being forced to change, hence the further research, and the appreciation of all the advice given, even yours Jools /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

<font color=purple> "You only see what you recognise, and you only recognise what you know" <font color=purple>
 
Re: Petrol has no place at sea

Why don't you go for a larger diesel engine sports boat you can weekend on in comfort, keep it at the marina your at and then buy just a cheap ski boat on a trailer to keep at the house.

<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BroadsandEastcoastBoating/>Broads & East Coast Boating</A>
 
Re: Petrol has no place at sea

Ok, I stand corrected on the reliability / complexity issue, thanks Jim, yes I am blinkered.

But I still would not use petrol at sea, yes I have an outboard on my tender but that is not my primary propulsion it does not even come third if things start going wrong.

As for the grey beard and dressing gown, slippers etc. not yet matey, but I have seen the weather change, I have searched for my Gods, I have so far and hopefully will always come through the other side.

Pete the way you had been talking, you were in the market for an offshore lump, that is the angle I was coming from, not talking from my arse, talking from experience, have you ever been out in a storm? It changes the fun of ‘out running Dom’ into ‘please get me home!’. That is the angle I was coming from.

Yes my knowledge of power boats is limited, though I have worked on 60ft+ trawlers with rather large power plants, but these geared down for pulling power rather than zippiness. I have never been on a boat with a petrol engine as primary propulsion other than small angling boats, so maybe yes I should not have butted in.

Fair Winds Pete, I will never question your vast wealth of experience again.


<hr width=100% size=1>Julian

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.topcatsail.co.uk>Top Cat Homepage</A>
 
Put to the Vote

Do you think that if we had a national referendum on this issue, the turn-out would be higher than those bothered to choose whether to re-elect TB or not?



!

<hr width=100% size=1><font color=blue> <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.mboat.org>http://www.mboat.org</A></font color=blue>
 
Re: Petrol has no place at sea

You sound just like SWMBO /forums/images/icons/wink.gif Problem is I don't want two boats, it would be far better to get a decent sized cuddy and keep it at Chatham, then just go on Duncan's boat at weekends /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif

<hr width=100% size=1><font color=purple> "You only see what you recognise, and you only recognise what you know" <font color=purple>
 
Re: Petrol has no place at sea

I thought you bought this boat for your son. That means you can have one too /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif
Give in now you know you want to.

<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BroadsandEastcoastBoating/>Broads & East Coast Boating</A>
 
Re: Petrol has no place at sea

Full respect for eating and perhaps choking on humble pie /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif Anyway I have never been in the market for an 'offshore lump', I am happy with my day and weekend pottering about at the moment, I would want at least a 32ft before going anywhere offshore, and that will not be at least for another year or two. If you want to have a go on a zippy boat I would be only too delighted to take you out /forums/images/icons/wink.gif As for being in a storm, I was in sort of a big storm once, I think it could have been 50mtr plus waves or even more, quite an experience, went on for what was like days, but I enjoyed the trip. I was in a small flat bottomed boat at the time, which yes, was diesel /forums/images/icons/wink.gif Anyway I survived to tell you the story.

Happy boating, and thanks for apologising /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

<hr width=100% size=1><font color=purple> "You only see what you recognise, and you only recognise what you know" <font color=purple>
 
Re: Petrol has no place at sea

Yes, that was the plan, but he doesn't really bother with it, he likes the 13mtr RIB with twin 240hp engines /forums/images/icons/wink.gif I think the cuddy is a bit of a come down for him, never mind, I have made use of it. Anyway he is out in his car all the time now, don't things change so quick.

<hr width=100% size=1><font color=purple> "You only see what you recognise, and you only recognise what you know" <font color=purple>
 
Re: Petrol has no place at sea

Was this storm on the sea? or are you talking about this forum a few months ago...

Sorry could not resit a little joke

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Re: Petrol has no place at sea

Very Deeeep Ocean at least 2,000 miles from the nearest land (apart from the odd little island) /forums/images/icons/wink.gif but not diss imilar to the odd occassion on here /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif

<font color=purple> "You only see what you recognise, and you only recognise what you know" <font color=purple>
 
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