Petrol or diesel...

stefan_r

stefan_r

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Having a major crisis. Have been offered two boats, one petrol and one with no engines that could be converted to diesel.

They are both Wellcraft Scarab III 34' American sports boats, the numbers stack up like this:



Petrol model 1985 - £25,000
Big drop in re-sale BUT I am not planning on selling it any time soon!!


TOTAL £25,000

Annual running costs £3,000 based on about 40 something hours per year

Other things: it's newer (1985), looks better (slightly updated exterior), it has a better interior and it is ready to go
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
No engine diesel potential - 1983 - £10,000
Engines and installation £30,000


TOTAL £40,000

Annual running costs £1,500 based on about 40 something hours per year

Other things: Diesel much more available




Really struggling to make a non-emotional decision. What say the forum?
 
If your going to actually use it. I mean go some where meaningfull. You need the diesel, as you have said.

But if your just tutalling about insight of the petrol pump. It dont matter does it.

But you already knew this!!
 
[ QUOTE ]
Having a major crisis. Have been offered two boats, one petrol and one with no engines that could be converted to diesel.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which hull is in better nick?
Are the petrol engines original?
A sports boat with no engines is only worth what somebody is prepared to pay, not what somebody is asking!

If the general all round condition of the 1983 boat is good then negotiate strongly and go for the diesel option. You've already said that the diesel option will save you £1,500 a year (est) so put that to upgrading the interior and then you'll have a boat with new engines and all the running gear etc.


[ QUOTE ]
Really struggling to make a non-emotional decision. What say the forum?

[/ QUOTE ]

Where does the emotion come into it? Wanting an old petrol boat for £25K and risking (I'd almost say guarantee) something going wrong on the petrol engines sometime soon and costing you "loads amoney" or getting a good (if it is of course) hull and putting in nice new diesels with the engine warranties etc, nice new modern instruments and new propulsion units.

I presume because you are even contemplating a boat with no engines that you are either prepared for or can do some of the work involved.

I know what option I would most likely take in your situation!

Oh,the other alternative of course would be to buy the '83 hull and put new petrols in! Less expensive in the short term, but back to your £3k annual running costs.

NB: Options lead to insanity! /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
 
Both hulls are in the same condition, though the 1985s interior is better so not much in it...

I will be using the old TRS outdrives on the boats - and on both they were recently reconditioned so it really is JUST the engines.

Reasonably comfortable that I should get some use out of the petrols for a few years...they have been surveyed and tested.

I am happy with the £10k for the 1983 hull; TRS drives; Transmissions; Trailer. Essentially I am getting fitted engines and something "ready to go" with the other boat (and something with a better interior and a few other bits) for another £15k.

I am doing all the work either boat needs apart from the engine work.

hmmmmmmmmmm
 
Nice looking boat!

Scarab-2.jpg





TRS / TR Drives
Lots of TRS drives are still operating out there!
They are very large and very tough. The main draw-back of the TRS drive was that it needed a transmission as no shifting occurred in the drive itself.
Newer and faster boats needed less weight and more room so the TRS has been discontinued by Mercury Marine and it's market replacement is the Bravo series.
The TRS initially was mated to Mercury Marines TRS transmission. This was Mercury's own design which used some Ford inner parts. The tranny had an internal oil cooler and an aluminium housing.
Mercury then changed to the Borg Warner Transmission which required that the TRS Drive input shaft be a splined male shaft instead of the older, hollow female splined shaft.
When ordering TRS stuff, make sure you specify what tranny set-up you have.
The TR drive used the same upper drive shaft housing as the TRS but it's lower housing and prop shaft were much larger for larger props.

Again, I think I'd go with the new diesel option and buy complete new units - engine and drive. Other wise just go for the petrol option and be done with it.
 
One thing I would think about is the weight of diesels of compareable power output. The engine will be physically bigger and heavier. Will this be an issue with the water line etc. I've seem a few Scarabs and most have sat very stern down at rest.
There used to be one on the frome moored bow to the bank on a finger. Wash from other boats regularly broke over the stern. Its had twin petrols in that particular boat. Sounded lovely burbling away on straight thru transom exhausts
 
Stefan £30k sounds like top price for the diesel engines. What are they? Can you use cheaper engines or reconditioned ones? Can you get a better deal?
Also the big financial factor is not the fuel saving for the diesel engines but the extra value of the diesel engined boat. What is this type of boat worth with diesel engines? If it's more than £35k then its a no brainer IMHO. Its got to be the no engines boat. Apart from that you will have new or newish engines which is worth a few quid for peace of mind
 
Firstly I have a petrol so take that into consideration with my reply.

Twin petrols pushing a 34ft Scarab will eat fuel (literaly). However if you are only doing 40 hours per year ie. using it as an occasional day boat then it would make sense to make a silly offer on the Petrol Version. You should be able to get it for 20k. That then buys you 5k of fuel or 2/3 years free boating. Of course resale is more difficult than with diesel but if you are planning to keep it more than 2 years then it will drop into the sub 20k bracket where a good petrol boat will always sell.

If you feel you may use it more ie. greater than 100hours then it is worth considering the hull and buy diesels. You do not need new diesels as it is possible to get good secondhand recon diesels for much less than you quote. The resale will be easier but the price will then be in the 30k to 40k bracket which is much more competetive to sell in.

If I was you I would make offers on both, say £19950 on the petrol and £6950 on the Hull. Which ever you get closest to go for it. As I have said it is swings and roundabouts so see what deal you can do. Remember it is January and Boats like these won't start selling until April/may or the sun shines.

Good luck and let us know how you go on.

Paul
 
The Wellcraft Scarab is a serious high performance boat. Think of it as a waterbourne Ferrari.

Now ask yourself if you would buy a Ferrari with a nice economical diesel engine?

If you're going to buy a silly, but magnificent, boat, do it properly. /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif
 
Oh, and £25K for a 34ft speedboat with effing great V8's in thats over 20 years old sounds extremely optimistic to me. /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]
Oh, and £25K for a 34ft speedboat with effing great V8's in thats over 20 years old sounds extremely optimistic to me. /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

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Yup! Offer 5k on the one with no engines! Chuck the TRS drives away - or sell em on Ebay ! Then spend money on a nice new Yamaha package.

On the other hand go buy a 1980's Bayliner /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
Facinating thread as the factors are nice and clearly laid out.

If you are buying 'an excellent hull etc' and planning to spend some money on the fit out, both interior and potentially mechanical, I struggle with the 20yr old engines.

At the hours you seem to be planning I would be very tempted to get the hull, do up the whole boat and then drop a couple of new petrol engines straight in to my immaculate engine room.......................given the price of packaged engine drive units I would probably go as far as getting a pair off 7.4s complete with BIII drives.

I now have a smart, reliable, performance boat that will be everything except economical but for about 25-30k.
 
Explanation of diesel costs

Cost breakdown for diesels

I need 300HP diesels.

All the big manufaturers Volvo Yanmar etc do a package inc drives but they are mega money.

300hp can't be readily found second hand / recon BUT TELL ME IF YOU KNOW WHERE I CAN FIND THEM!!!!!!!!

New v8 Hummer engines are £13,000 EACH ex VAT
Same recon engines are about half that so £13,000 for the pair.
Budget £5,000 fitting either way.

Costs are getting toppy....so can't really afford a new set of drives as well....
 
Both hulls are in equally EXCELLENT condition.

The engines have been rebuilt 20 hours ago. The drives too.

But to install the diesels is more complex, and slightly more costly (though not by masses. Though your statement here is crystallising my thinking!!! BUT I am not getting new running gear with that cost...just recon diesel mated with recon TRS drives.

The re-engine with new, light and <slightly> economical petrols is also another option....but that puts me back to decision (1) Petrol or Diesel!!!
 
[ QUOTE ]
One thing I would think about is the weight of diesels of compareable power output. The engine will be physically bigger and heavier. Will this be an issue with the water line etc. I've seem a few Scarabs and most have sat very stern down at rest.
There used to be one on the frome moored bow to the bank on a finger. Wash from other boats regularly broke over the stern. Its had twin petrols in that particular boat. Sounded lovely burbling away on straight thru transom exhausts

[/ QUOTE ]


The old Mercruiser 7.4s are about the same weight as the V8s I am looking at so should be okay...
 
[ QUOTE ]
Stefan £30k sounds like top price for the diesel engines. What are they? Can you use cheaper engines or reconditioned ones? Can you get a better deal?
Also the big financial factor is not the fuel saving for the diesel engines but the extra value of the diesel engined boat. What is this type of boat worth with diesel engines? If it's more than £35k then its a no brainer IMHO. Its got to be the no engines boat. Apart from that you will have new or newish engines which is worth a few quid for peace of mind

[/ QUOTE ]



Prices are £13k EACH for new or about the same for a PAIR of recon.

They have to be 300hp or so to get a 'performance' top speed. With these I should crack 50kt.

This sort of boat needs that sort of performance IMHO...as the other post says - it's a Ferrari...it needs to act lik one!

If you have a source for recon 300hp (or near) diesels and drives PLEASE tell me!
 
[ QUOTE ]
Firstly I have a petrol so take that into consideration with my reply.

Twin petrols pushing a 34ft Scarab will eat fuel (literaly). However if you are only doing 40 hours per year ie. using it as an occasional day boat then it would make sense to make a silly offer on the Petrol Version. You should be able to get it for 20k. That then buys you 5k of fuel or 2/3 years free boating. Of course resale is more difficult than with diesel but if you are planning to keep it more than 2 years then it will drop into the sub 20k bracket where a good petrol boat will always sell.

If you feel you may use it more ie. greater than 100hours then it is worth considering the hull and buy diesels. You do not need new diesels as it is possible to get good secondhand recon diesels for much less than you quote. The resale will be easier but the price will then be in the 30k to 40k bracket which is much more competetive to sell in.



Good luck and let us know how you go on.

Paul

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I am definitely keeping it for many years.....and this is strictly a weekender for me....

40 hours sounds about right?

I have a cruiser in the Med for long breaks....
 
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