cliffordpope
New member
I had a great grandfather and a great uncle (Jones) who were chief steward and captain with the Ellerman Lines, orginally in sail. One was interned in Smyna for the duration when his ship was caught there in 1914.
Petition to remove Blue Flag Warrants
- Thread starter BurnitBlue
- Start date
cliffordpope
New member
Re: Name and Shame - guess who..
If you have just limped in, battered from rounding the Horn, a tatty Red Duster is the greatest acknowlegement of our maritime glory there is.
But otherwise, like flagpoles in back gardens, flying anything on something smaller than a J-class or a steam yacht is naff.
If you have just limped in, battered from rounding the Horn, a tatty Red Duster is the greatest acknowlegement of our maritime glory there is.
But otherwise, like flagpoles in back gardens, flying anything on something smaller than a J-class or a steam yacht is naff.
Lizzie_B
New member
Re: Name and Shame - guess who..
Until you enter foriegn waters - when it becomes a good idea to use an ensign. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Agree about the flagpoles in the back garden though!
/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
Until you enter foriegn waters - when it becomes a good idea to use an ensign. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Agree about the flagpoles in the back garden though!
/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
BurnitBlue
Well-known member
I would like to set the record straight here. I am not against anyone wearing any ensign whether its defaced Red or Blue or White.
I am simply stating that it is the warrant system that gets up peoples nose and makes it appear exclusive. And this simple fact is used by SOME to let them imagine that it is exclusive and they are something special which produces an "attitude".
Kids round here wear a red football jersey and they don't need a warrant from Manchester United so why this antiquated system of giving selected permission for certain British Citizens to wear a legal British ensign. I dont get the logic and I suspect it is the basic cause of a lot of resentment.
I repeat (again) that this is my only beef. I would like to wear a red Blue or white, especially the white because I was born in England, depending on how I feel. If it is a legal British ensign then every citizen should be allowed to wear it. If it is not a legal British ensign then nobody should be allowed to wear it. That is my case.
I am simply stating that it is the warrant system that gets up peoples nose and makes it appear exclusive. And this simple fact is used by SOME to let them imagine that it is exclusive and they are something special which produces an "attitude".
Kids round here wear a red football jersey and they don't need a warrant from Manchester United so why this antiquated system of giving selected permission for certain British Citizens to wear a legal British ensign. I dont get the logic and I suspect it is the basic cause of a lot of resentment.
I repeat (again) that this is my only beef. I would like to wear a red Blue or white, especially the white because I was born in England, depending on how I feel. If it is a legal British ensign then every citizen should be allowed to wear it. If it is not a legal British ensign then nobody should be allowed to wear it. That is my case.
Lizzie_B
New member
I should think the red shirts cost far more than the permit - and nowadays some clubs you have to buy two a year to keep up to date.
I agree in general - people should be able to wear plain red or plain blue ensigns as they fancy.
The defaced ones are linked to specific history of specific clubs (awarded no doubt because the membership was becoming elderly and poor sighted - so needed something bigger than a burgee to identify other club members during cruise in company).
The white ensign is,of course, our armed naval ensign, and so is not applicable to general use. The grant of its use to the RYS goes way back into history, when the RYS provided Research and development services for the RN at their own cost.
It's been a long time since they fulfilled that function so maybe they should give up the priviledge and have a red or blue defaced with a white ensign.
As the vast majority of 'priviledged' clubs have open membership and many of them have fees not significantly different to non priviledged clubs I don't see that it should raise so much heat, or speak of exclusivity. It's only a club badge, just like a football shirt.
If you really want to use one join a club.
I joined my club for economic reasons combined with my employment history. I find the services the club provides really useful when sailing my own boat in the States.
I think we have one of the largest club memberships of any sailing club (about 7000) because of the services provided to members, and as a club do a lot to encourage sailing as a sport in the UK in general.
/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
I agree in general - people should be able to wear plain red or plain blue ensigns as they fancy.
The defaced ones are linked to specific history of specific clubs (awarded no doubt because the membership was becoming elderly and poor sighted - so needed something bigger than a burgee to identify other club members during cruise in company).
The white ensign is,of course, our armed naval ensign, and so is not applicable to general use. The grant of its use to the RYS goes way back into history, when the RYS provided Research and development services for the RN at their own cost.
It's been a long time since they fulfilled that function so maybe they should give up the priviledge and have a red or blue defaced with a white ensign.
As the vast majority of 'priviledged' clubs have open membership and many of them have fees not significantly different to non priviledged clubs I don't see that it should raise so much heat, or speak of exclusivity. It's only a club badge, just like a football shirt.
If you really want to use one join a club.
I joined my club for economic reasons combined with my employment history. I find the services the club provides really useful when sailing my own boat in the States.
I think we have one of the largest club memberships of any sailing club (about 7000) because of the services provided to members, and as a club do a lot to encourage sailing as a sport in the UK in general.
/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
TrueBlue
Well-known member
[ QUOTE ]
I repeat (again) that this is my only beef. I would like to wear a red Blue or white, especially the white because I was born in England, depending on how I feel. If it is a legal British ensign then every citizen should be allowed to wear it. If it is not a legal British ensign then nobody should be allowed to wear it. That is my case.
[/ QUOTE ]
I take your point, but there is a fundamental flaw in your argument, in that the Red is now a public flag. The White is reserved for armed RN ships on active service (RYS excepting). The Blue is a Government flag - defaced or not, but there the whole thing falls apart. Some yacht clubs and organisations were permitted to wear Blues for various historical reasons and that was by a Royal Warrant. Now that we don't have much of a Navy left, the MOD has walked away from the certification and handed it over to the RYA. No new warrants for clubs will be created, so that over time the whole matter will disappear.
If you remove the Warrant process it will mean that no civilian will be able to wear a Blue - because sure as eggs are eggs the government is not going to give up the reserved status, even if it wanted to. A plain Blue is still worn by RN auxiliary vessels and others - so it couldn't be released for public use.
There are folks (probably republicans) who would throw away all of our traditions, but to my mind these - perhaps quirky - processes set us British apart from the rest. Would you abolish Changing the Guard, Trooping the Colour, Scots wearing the Kilt or playing bagpipes, hairy blokes dancing with bells on their knees and on and on.
I'm sure you wouldn't,
but none of the above serve any practical purpose - so why get rid of them?
I repeat (again) that this is my only beef. I would like to wear a red Blue or white, especially the white because I was born in England, depending on how I feel. If it is a legal British ensign then every citizen should be allowed to wear it. If it is not a legal British ensign then nobody should be allowed to wear it. That is my case.
[/ QUOTE ]
I take your point, but there is a fundamental flaw in your argument, in that the Red is now a public flag. The White is reserved for armed RN ships on active service (RYS excepting). The Blue is a Government flag - defaced or not, but there the whole thing falls apart. Some yacht clubs and organisations were permitted to wear Blues for various historical reasons and that was by a Royal Warrant. Now that we don't have much of a Navy left, the MOD has walked away from the certification and handed it over to the RYA. No new warrants for clubs will be created, so that over time the whole matter will disappear.
If you remove the Warrant process it will mean that no civilian will be able to wear a Blue - because sure as eggs are eggs the government is not going to give up the reserved status, even if it wanted to. A plain Blue is still worn by RN auxiliary vessels and others - so it couldn't be released for public use.
There are folks (probably republicans) who would throw away all of our traditions, but to my mind these - perhaps quirky - processes set us British apart from the rest. Would you abolish Changing the Guard, Trooping the Colour, Scots wearing the Kilt or playing bagpipes, hairy blokes dancing with bells on their knees and on and on.
I'm sure you wouldn't,
but none of the above serve any practical purpose - so why get rid of them?
Danny Jo
Active member
[ QUOTE ]
If you remove the Warrant process it will mean that no civilian will be able to wear a Blue - because sure as eggs are eggs the government is not going to give up the reserved status, even if it wanted to. A plain Blue is still worn by RN auxiliary vessels and others - so it couldn't be released for public use.
[/ QUOTE ] This may be idle pub talk, but isn't there an archaic rule or statute somewhere that allows HM government to call on your services as an auxiliary if you fly a defaced blue?
If you remove the Warrant process it will mean that no civilian will be able to wear a Blue - because sure as eggs are eggs the government is not going to give up the reserved status, even if it wanted to. A plain Blue is still worn by RN auxiliary vessels and others - so it couldn't be released for public use.
[/ QUOTE ] This may be idle pub talk, but isn't there an archaic rule or statute somewhere that allows HM government to call on your services as an auxiliary if you fly a defaced blue?
Keen_Ed
Active member
[ QUOTE ]
No new warrants for clubs will be created, so that over time the whole matter will disappear.
[/ QUOTE ]
Why? Why would any club that's successfully existed for 100+ years suddenly cease to exist?
No new warrants for clubs will be created, so that over time the whole matter will disappear.
[/ QUOTE ]
Why? Why would any club that's successfully existed for 100+ years suddenly cease to exist?
TrueBlue
Well-known member
Well -
Membership of some clubs is in decline, and as overzealous regulation takes its toll, and the next generation get dumbed down and takes its boating pleasure under power rather than under sail, then the decline will continue.
I know my own club sees reducing numbers, and a club local to me all but disappeared, but for someone who saved its undefaced ensign....
So it does happen and is happening. That's one of the reasons that I rant on from time to time.
Membership of some clubs is in decline, and as overzealous regulation takes its toll, and the next generation get dumbed down and takes its boating pleasure under power rather than under sail, then the decline will continue.
I know my own club sees reducing numbers, and a club local to me all but disappeared, but for someone who saved its undefaced ensign....
So it does happen and is happening. That's one of the reasons that I rant on from time to time.
cliffordpope
New member
Re: Well -
What's the etiquette for flying a flag of a defunct yacht club?
What's the etiquette for flying a flag of a defunct yacht club?
Woodlouse
New member
Re: Well -
If someone is flying the flag then is the club defunct? Or does it make them the Commodore?
If someone is flying the flag then is the club defunct? Or does it make them the Commodore?
TrueBlue
Well-known member
Re: Well -
[ QUOTE ]
What's the etiquette for flying a flag of a defunct yacht club?
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, fly it at half mast, I suppose. A bit more of a challenge if you are wearing one.
/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
Who can be bothered to work out (or is able to) from the burgee which club it is anyway....
[ QUOTE ]
What's the etiquette for flying a flag of a defunct yacht club?
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, fly it at half mast, I suppose. A bit more of a challenge if you are wearing one.
/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
Who can be bothered to work out (or is able to) from the burgee which club it is anyway....
bilbobaggins
N/A
[ QUOTE ]
many people serve their country in one form or another. Mothers bringing up scores of children spring to mind.
[/ QUOTE ]
Rather sounds like 'serving' in a different capacity.....
/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
many people serve their country in one form or another. Mothers bringing up scores of children spring to mind.
[/ QUOTE ]
Rather sounds like 'serving' in a different capacity.....
/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
landaftaf
New member
mmmm
I never did get my head around that concept /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
I never did get my head around that concept /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif