Perthshire Royal Navy officer accused of negligence after Cowes Week yacht crash

Talulah said:
Wasn't there some question mark over the sound signal given by the container ship?
This Sunday outside Cowes a large container vessel gave 8 blasts. You'd think they would get it right.

Getting back to the yacht in question, I understand there were only two on board who thought they weren't going to hit the ship. The skipper and the tactician. Everyone else was convinced they would hit. (Inside knowledge.)
Click to expand...


I remember something about sound signals. A claim that the tanker gave the wrong signal for the manoeuvre about to be made ??

I thought it might be interesting to post a chart I saved at the time that shows the track of the tanker plotted from AIS data and, in pink, the leg of the race on which the incident occurred.

Clearly Atalanta of Chester was south of that line, possibly to gain maximum advantage from the tide.

The wind on the day in question was roughly WSW'ly


Atalantacollision.jpg
 
VicS said:
I remember something about sound signals. A claim that the tanker gave the wrong signal for the manoeuvre about to be made ??

I thought it might be interesting to post a chart I saved at the time that shows the track of the tanker plotted from AIS data and, in pink, the leg of the race on which the incident occurred.

Clearly Atalanta of Chester was south of that line, possibly to gain maximum advantage from the tide.

The wind on the day in question was roughly WSW'ly


Atalantacollision.jpg
Click to expand...

Looking at the clip below from 0:55 it is clear that the north cardinal is Gurnard. Hence, the ship appears to be well within the precautionary area and not (as some have suggested) east of Prince Consort north cardinal. Clearly the skipper of the Atalanta has some work to do to explain why he was within the MEZ but maybe he can explain it. The way his crew began leaping into the sea before the collision may have made a last minute change of course an impossibility but, as to what happened immediately before that... no doubt it will emerge at the trial.

 
VicS said:
I remember something about sound signals. A claim that the tanker gave the wrong signal for the manoeuvre about to be made ??

I thought it might be interesting to post a chart I saved at the time that shows the track of the tanker plotted from AIS data and, in pink, the leg of the race on which the incident occurred.

Clearly Atalanta of Chester was south of that line, possibly to gain maximum advantage from the tide.

The wind on the day in question was roughly WSW'ly


Atalantacollision.jpg
Click to expand...

Can someone please post the notes from the chart which relate to the Precautionary Area?
I note in the vid at 0.55, the cardinal mark (N) is almost in-line with the chimney so the exact point of the incident can be plotted with the snail-trail. Good work sir!
 
Last edited:
Moving Prohibited Zone.
11.(1). In this byelaw -
‘’the Precautionary Area” means the main navigable channel which lies between an imaginary line drawn between Prince Consort and South Bramble Buoys and an imaginary line drawn between Black Jack and Hook Buoys;
‘’Moving Prohibited Zone’’ means an area extending 1000 metres ahead and 100 metres either side of any vessel of over 150 metres length overall while it is navigating within the Precautionary Area.
(2) The master of a small vessel shall ensure that the vessel does not enter a Moving Prohibited Zone.
(3) For the purpose of indicating the presence of the Moving Prohibited Zone the master of any vessel of over 150 metres length overall shall display on the vessel, where it can best be seen, by day, a black cylinder, and, by night, 3 all round red lights in a vertical line.


My first question would be... Was the cargo vessel displaying a black cylinder to indicate a moving prohibited zone existed?
 
Last edited:
Talulah said:
Moving Prohibited Zone.
11.(1). In this byelaw -
‘’the Precautionary Area” means the main navigable channel which lies between an imaginary line drawn between Prince Consort and South Bramble Buoys and an imaginary line drawn between Black Jack and Hook Buoys;
‘’Moving Prohibited Zone’’ means an area extending 1000 metres ahead and 100 metres either side of any vessel of over 150 metres length overall while it is navigating within the Precautionary Area.
(2) The master of a small vessel shall ensure that the vessel does not enter a Moving Prohibited Zone.
(3) For the purpose of indicating the presence of the Moving Prohibited Zone the master of any vessel of over 150 metres length overall shall display on the vessel, where it can best be seen, by day, a black cylinder, and, by night, 3 all round red lights in a vertical line.


My first question would be... Was the cargo vessel displaying a black cylinder to indicate a moving prohibited zone existed?
Click to expand...

Can't see on that clip. But having a tug attached by a cable to the stern is a fair old clue!
 
Talulah said:
My first question would be... Was the cargo vessel displaying a black cylinder to indicate a moving prohibited zone existed?
Click to expand...

She was flying it. See here: http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7155/6646195241_7cd4dd9d5a_o.jpg
If you look at her signal mast on the monkey island, on the port side there's a red flag and just inboard of that flag there's the cylinder. It looks quite small because it is just that - they're normally only 1.2m x 0.6m.
 
jrc1983 said:
The point previously made was that ABP should effectively close down or restrict access to Southampton. Doing so would cause ABP a fair degree of financial strife, especially with the container ship companies who operate to a fixed schedule.
So it comes down to this - is it logical to restrict access to an internationally important port involved in the large scale import/export of containers, bulk, general cargo and petroleum products simply because a number of people with too much money and who treat their leisure occupation as some kind of holy cause want to have some fun?
Click to expand...
No one has suggested that "...ABP should effectively close down or restrict access to Southampton...". The suggestion was that "..They could have timed movements a little more sympathetically...".

Most Solent racing is over by early afternoon and other passages could be made so that they don't coincide with starts and finishes that may be taking a line across the precautionary zone quite easily - as during the RTIR - we are talking about delays in minutes not even hours. Depending on wind direction there may not even be any some days. Container ships could also fix their schedules taking into account Cowes Week which can hardly come as a surprise each year. Every person out on the water has just as much right to be there as any commercial vessel.

Your final sentence is just uninformed rubbish - thousands of ordinary people take part in Cowes week, both on and off the water and you have clearly never taken part if you think all it is is "...a number of people with too much money and who treat their leisure occupation as some kind of holy cause want to have some fun..."
 
l'escargot said:
The suggestion was that "..They could have timed movements a little more sympathetically...".
Click to expand...

Someone more famous than me once said "time and tide wait for no man". Tidal windows are what dictates timing for many of the bigger pieces of heavy metal. Not just depth but also, apparently, x-currents on the turn. So race times, though known to ABP and their pilots, can't always be respected.

Personally, as someone who spent 25 years Solent racing, I think shipping gives it an extra frisson.
 
capnsensible said:
Its not. Its constrained by draft. Its showing that signal in the channel it is restricted to. Vessel under sail gives way.
Click to expand...

You need to read the byelaw I posted previously. Whilst the black cylinder has a specific meaning for constrained by draft it is also relevant to the byelaw.

(3) For the purpose of indicating the presence of the Moving Prohibited Zone the master of any vessel of over 150 metres length overall shall display on the vessel, where it can best be seen, by day, a black cylinder, and, by night, 3 all round red lights in a vertical line.
 
Twister_Ken said:
Someone more famous than me once said "time and tide wait for no man". Tidal windows are what dictates timing for many of the bigger pieces of heavy metal. Not just depth but also, apparently, x-currents on the turn. So race times, though known to ABP and their pilots, can't always be respected...
Click to expand...

I always thought that but it is surprising how little that seems to affect Solent shipping these days, some surprisingly big boats seem to move at all states of the tide.

A bit like the Wightlink ferry at Fishbourne always claimed constrained by draft until they decided they could increase their sailings by bringing one boat down outside the channel whilst the other was leaving...:)
 
Last edited:
Talulah said:
You need to read the byelaw I posted previously. Whilst the black cylinder has a specific meaning for constrained by draft it is also relevant to the byelaw.

(3) For the purpose of indicating the presence of the Moving Prohibited Zone the master of any vessel of over 150 metres length overall shall display on the vessel, where it can best be seen, by day, a black cylinder, and, by night, 3 all round red lights in a vertical line.
Click to expand...

I did, but my interpretation is clearly different.
 
flaming said:
For what it's worth my guess as to his defence will be that they were caught out by the tanker's turn to port as it passed Prince Consort.

I.e. I suspect that what happened is that they saw the tanker aiming to pass North of them and disregarded it as a threat. That boat (raced against it a few times) has a bit of a sea sweeping Kite, so I'd guess that as their next mark was Prince Consort itself they lost sight of it behind the kite, only becoming aware that it was no longer aiming North of them at quite a short range. Then they were trapped - couldn't bear away as they knew it was about to turn to starboard, and couldn't go up as they were already about as high as they could be with the kite and no time to drop. Have a look at this video - shows them broaching as they enter shot - and so I guess they were trying to go high but failed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6CjpHFNteI
Click to expand...

As usual, Flaming, I think you have made the right analysis. It seemed to me that they were trying to sail high to get across the bows and lost speed as the spinny collapsed. Caught by the lottery of trying guess just when the tanker was going to make the sharp turn to starboard. I wonder what sound signals were made by the tanker and when......
 
prr said:
If Mr.Hornblower has enought witnesses to prove that because of tangled gear he was 'Not Under Command' he could base his defence on rule 18d maybe? Hope he gets away with it anyway. It was Cowes week !......
Click to expand...

not possible to be "not under command" when under sail I'm afraid. Guilty therefore.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Share this page

Top