Perkins T6.354 - 145hp, reliability?

[Scarron]

One word for you - Gardner

 

[penfold]

One word for you - Gardner

Spares are definitely available for these, albeit only really one or two suppliers; the main downside is they aren't usually found in craft the size the OP is looking at.

 

[oldgit]

rather than buying an old worn out boat from the last century which could need massive repairs , why not consider something like a merry fisher 925 single engine from about 2005 vintage for £50-60k. It's will have already suffered a huge depreciation hit so it value should stay reasonably steady over the next 5 years.

Let me know, when you intend taking that flybridge through East Farleigh bridge. Murv...Will bring my camera
and invite Deeren Brown along

 

[Latestarter1]

Spares are definitely available for these, albeit only really one or two suppliers; the main downside is they aren't usually found in craft the size the OP is looking at.

Yes I agree that Gardner does break the rule on parts availability on old marine engines, with three suppliers providing decent level of support.

One interesting fact is that current rebuilds are of far higher quality than stuff built towards the end, matters were on the slide under Hawker Siddeley ownership which continued when when purchased by Perkins in 1986 despite significant investment in new, warmed over engine models. High percentage of Gardner engines were actually failing under test before customer even saw them. I saw the very last Foden with a Gardner going down the production line in 1988 with a huge oil leak from the front end, the same year ERF sold last five trucks with Patricrot's finest, all had to be re-powered with engines from another manufacturer whilst still under warranty.

Good that people only remember Gardner before their quality went down the pan.

 

[Murv]

Let me know, when you intend taking that flybridge through East Farleigh bridge. Murv...Will bring my camera
and invite Deeren Brown along

Oh, I'm quite sure I'd get a flybridge through there, as long as I can get enough of a run-up at it

 

[oldgit]

Oh, I'm quite sure I'd get a flybridge through there, as long as I can get enough of a run-up at it

Ps. Have no idea who Deeren Brown is...but wanted to appear up to date and modern...What is a Twitter by the way ?

 

[Murv]

Ps. Have no idea who Deeren Brown is...but wanted to appear up to date and modern...What is a Twitter by the way ?

I think he's a magician, or conman, something like that. Although I thought that was Darren Brown so you're doing way better than me!
A twitter is what the birds do at East Farleigh at 5am as the mist lifts from the water and the fish leave dimples in the mirrored surface

Christ I miss having a boat!!

 

[Wavey]

If you're thinking about a Broom with Perkins 6354s I suggest you get in touch with the Broom owners club about spares availability. So many Brooms have them the owners club is going out of its way to source spares.

 

[Murv]

If you're thinking about a Broom with Perkins 6354s I suggest you get in touch with the Broom owners club about spares availability. So many Brooms have them the owners club is going out of its way to source spares.

Thanks for that. It's actually a Moonraker, but good to know the Broom owners club may be able to help at a push.

 

[epervier]

Well, having read through this lot I'd better pay someone to take my boat off my hands 'cause it'll never sell it with a pair of layover 6354's. mind you, they have never ever failed to start and run sweetly, but hey don't let the truth get in the way of a slagging

 

[Murv]

Well, having read through this lot I'd better pay someone to take my boat off my hands 'cause it'll never sell it with a pair of layover 6354's. mind you, they have never ever failed to start and run sweetly, but hey don't let the truth get in the way of a slagging

As it so happens... I can probably take this off you for a small fee. No need to thank me, that's just the kind of guy I am

 

[burgundyben]

Well, having read through this lot I'd better pay someone to take my boat off my hands 'cause it'll never sell it with a pair of layover 6354's. mind you, they have never ever failed to start and run sweetly, but hey don't let the truth get in the way of a slagging

I'll pop over and pick it up tonight.

They are a fab engine, I loved mine, but old hat now and spares becoming problematic.

Its fine if the owner of the boat is a bit handy with spanners and can work through the re-power options in a sensible fashion.

What is not fine with your and Fairey boats like mine walking into Golden Arrow and asking for a pair of new Perkins please, as its a £40k job to do that.

 

[penfold]

Yes I agree that Gardner does break the rule on parts availability on old marine engines, with three suppliers providing decent level of support.

One interesting fact is that current rebuilds are of far higher quality than stuff built towards the end, matters were on the slide under Hawker Siddeley ownership which continued when when purchased by Perkins in 1986 despite significant investment in new, warmed over engine models. High percentage of Gardner engines were actually failing under test before customer even saw them. I saw the very last Foden with a Gardner going down the production line in 1988 with a huge oil leak from the front end, the same year ERF sold last five trucks with Patricrot's finest, all had to be re-powered with engines from another manufacturer whilst still under warranty.

Good that people only remember Gardner before their quality went down the pan.

Their problems were mainly due to the customer not knowing best; the road engines were consistently short of power compared to the competition and supply was always restricted, forcing willing customers to buy the competion good or bad. Being 10 years too late researching turbos meant that they rushed what they had into service and it killed their reputatation for reliability. Just having reliability and good specific fuel consumption was never enough in period, although it means the remaining engines continue to be used and be popular. Given the prices paid for even tired engines it's almost worth puting the LW and LK into limited production.

 

[mersey]

If you're thinking about a Broom with Perkins 6354s I suggest you get in touch with the Broom owners club about spares availability. So many Brooms have them the owners club is going out of its way to source spares.

Yup, the previous technical co-ordinator produced a massive document with sources and/or repair centres for all the parts and ancillaries.

This is focused around the HT variants as thats what's in the Brooms its aimed at.

Definitely recommend the club to any Broom owners.

 

[talltim]

Their problems were mainly due to the customer not knowing best; the road engines were consistently short of power compared to the competition and supply was always restricted, forcing willing customers to buy the competion good or bad. Being 10 years too late researching turbos meant that they rushed what they had into service and it killed their reputatation for reliability. Just having reliability and good specific fuel consumption was never enough in period, although it means the remaining engines continue to be used and be popular. Given the prices paid for even tired engines it's almost worth puting the LW and LK into limited production.

The late introduction of a turbocharged Gardner was down to the pre Hawker Siddeley days when the owner refused to even consider the idea.

The result was too little too late with the rushed introduction of the insufficiently tested and developed LXCT, LXDT and LYT engines

This was just one of many british engine manufacturers who built a good engine and stuck with it resting on their laurels whilst the competitors copied and improved

For example a DAF 1160 is a deadringer for a Leyland 600 series, and the 11 litre Scania DSC11 is very similar to the AEC.

 

[burgundyben]

Yes I agree that Gardner does break the rule on parts availability on old marine engines, with three suppliers providing decent level of support.

One interesting fact is that current rebuilds are of far higher quality than stuff built towards the end, matters were on the slide under Hawker Siddeley ownership which continued when when purchased by Perkins in 1986 despite significant investment in new, warmed over engine models. High percentage of Gardner engines were actually failing under test before customer even saw them. I saw the very last Foden with a Gardner going down the production line in 1988 with a huge oil leak from the front end, the same year ERF sold last five trucks with Patricrot's finest, all had to be re-powered with engines from another manufacturer whilst still under warranty.

Good that people only remember Gardner before their quality went down the pan.

You have shattered my dreams.

 

[Latestarter1]

The late introduction of a turbocharged Gardner was down to the pre Hawker Siddeley days when the owner refused to even consider the idea.

The result was too little too late with the rushed introduction of the insufficiently tested and developed LXCT, LXDT and LYT engines

This was just one of many british engine manufacturers who built a good engine and stuck with it resting on their laurels whilst the competitors copied and improved

For example a DAF 1160 is a deadringer for a Leyland 600 series, and the 11 litre Scania DSC11 is very similar to the AEC.

Penfold

I was concious of this becoming rampant thread drift but perhaps not.

Folklore about Gardner and late introduction of turbocharging is pretty much that, folklore, Gardner actually introduced turbocharged engines before Daimler Benz.

I will agree that the roots of Gardner's demise lays with Hugh Gardner, an unqualified nob with complete marketing myopia. The autocratic Northern mill owner mentality led directly to the 1973 14 week strike and the loss of over 500 skilled employees. Up to 1973 you did not purchase a Gardner, you were allocated one.

Hawker Siddeley flush with Government cash invested heavily in new machine tools, however totally failed to implement FMS (Flexible Manufacturing Systems) creating a huge overhead with no increase in productivity and actually a decline in quality.

12.7 6LXDT and 15.5 liter 6LYT were new engines designed to address increase in heavy goods vehicle weights, the 6LYT was a torque monster, the 350 hp rating was able to out lug a Cummins NTE 350 any day of the week. Lucas threw a huge spanner in the works by stopping development of the Maximec fuel pump, big brother of Majormec after reviewing declining volume projections of the 6LYT. Head gasket integrity, broken piston rings on the LYT and the DT had a lovely habit of grabbing the dry liner pulling it down into the crankcase which comes into disastrous conflict with the crankshaft webs.

Hawker Siddeley had a gut full of Barton Hall Engine Works and dumped the business on to Perkins. The 6LYDT was consigned to history however Perkins pressed on with a warmed over 6XDT redesigning the front gear case to drive a Bosch in-line fuel pump and relaunched the engine as the LG1200 aimed directly at the bus market both here and in Hong Kong.

Whilst Gardner was in turmoil, Cummins was quietly testing the key components which made Gardner fuel efficient, as early as the mid 70's the Cummins European Technical Centre in Essen Germany was testing an NH engine with a chain driven camshaft and Gardner style piston ring packs, however it was actually Perkins who were sewing the seeds of Gardner's demise. In the mid 50's Perkins were working on a new engine to replace the P6, the project came close to disaster and a new engineering team was recruited to rescue the project. The project being developed by the new highly motivated team was the Perkins 6.354, several years after the successful launch of the 6.354 a key member of the design team was quietly hired away from Perkins by Cummins. The brilliant young British engineer Phillip Jones went on to create a number of engine designs, however the Jones designed Cummins L10 took away the remaining markets for Gardner, Hong Kong eventually re-powered all Gardner LG1200 powered buses with L10's and Gardner was dead.

Sorry to be pedantic however DAF 11.6 was very close to Leyland 680 however DAF changed the pattern and number of cylinder head bolts which cured the Leyland gasket problems at a stroke.

Scania DSC11 was a product of a joint collaboration with Leyland in the early 50's using 127mm bore with a wet liner, however for some reason Scania put their cam on the opposite side, AEC never adopted wet liners, stayed with dry sleeves to the bitter end........Better stop before somebody asks about parts support for AEC Ajax marine engines.

 

[oldgit]

Am I the only one fascinated by this history. ?

 

[mersey]

No, me too.

 

[burgundyben]

Penfold

I was concious of this becoming rampant thread drift but perhaps not.

Folklore about Gardner and late introduction of turbocharging is pretty much that, folklore, Gardner actually introduced turbocharged engines before Daimler Benz.

I will agree that the roots of Gardner's demise lays with Hugh Gardner, an unqualified nob with complete marketing myopia. The autocratic Northern mill owner mentality led directly to the 1973 14 week strike and the loss of over 500 skilled employees. Up to 1973 you did not purchase a Gardner, you were allocated one.

Hawker Siddeley flush with Government cash invested heavily in new machine tools, however totally failed to implement FMS (Flexible Manufacturing Systems) creating a huge overhead with no increase in productivity and actually a decline in quality.

12.7 6LXDT and 15.5 liter 6LYT were new engines designed to address increase in heavy goods vehicle weights, the 6LYT was a torque monster, the 350 hp rating was able to out lug a Cummins NTE 350 any day of the week. Lucas threw a huge spanner in the works by stopping development of the Maximec fuel pump, big brother of Majormec after reviewing declining volume projections of the 6LYT. Head gasket integrity, broken piston rings on the LYT and the DT had a lovely habit of grabbing the dry liner pulling it down into the crankcase which comes into disastrous conflict with the crankshaft webs.

Hawker Siddeley had a gut full of Barton Hall Engine Works and dumped the business on to Perkins. The 6LYDT was consigned to history however Perkins pressed on with a warmed over 6XDT redesigning the front gear case to drive a Bosch in-line fuel pump and relaunched the engine as the LG1200 aimed directly at the bus market both here and in Hong Kong.

Whilst Gardner was in turmoil, Cummins was quietly testing the key components which made Gardner fuel efficient, as early as the mid 70's the Cummins European Technical Centre in Essen Germany was testing an NH engine with a chain driven camshaft and Gardner style piston ring packs, however it was actually Perkins who were sewing the seeds of Gardner's demise. In the mid 50's Perkins were working on a new engine to replace the P6, the project came close to disaster and a new engineering team was recruited to rescue the project. The project being developed by the new highly motivated team was the Perkins 6.354, several years after the successful launch of the 6.354 a key member of the design team was quietly hired away from Perkins by Cummins. The brilliant young British engineer Phillip Jones went on to create a number of engine designs, however the Jones designed Cummins L10 took away the remaining markets for Gardner, Hong Kong eventually re-powered all Gardner LG1200 powered buses with L10's and Gardner was dead.

Sorry to be pedantic however DAF 11.6 was very close to Leyland 680 however DAF changed the pattern and number of cylinder head bolts which cured the Leyland gasket problems at a stroke.

Scania DSC11 was a product of a joint collaboration with Leyland in the early 50's using 127mm bore with a wet liner, however for some reason Scania put their cam on the opposite side, AEC never adopted wet liners, stayed with dry sleeves to the bitter end........Better stop before somebody asks about parts support for AEC Ajax marine engines.

There's a book here.