Perkins 4107

I'm no engine expert, but I believe the point is that it's best to use an oil that suits the era of the engine. I have a 10 year old high performance car that uses fully synthetic oil, a 40 year old that uses more tradtional multigrade, and 98 year old (yes, really) that uses straight mineral oil.

So unless anyone knows better I'd use oil that is recommended for any other diesel of the same era, say a van, or tractor. I'm sure a reputable oils supplier like Millers Oils could recommend something suitable.
 
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No need for Synthetic ... in fact I don't use synthetic in anything I have ... but usually go for Semi ...

In my Perkins ... its base mineral 10-40 ....... checking the book - it says anything from 10-30 to 20-50 ...
 
Can someone please give me a logical reason why older diesel engines in good condition would not benefit from a good quality multigrade synthetic oil?
 
Modern synthetics reduce sludge, keep engines cleaner have longer life and are less hydroscopic. Generally people have used older mineral oils on clapped out engines because they are cheaper and the detergents in mineral oils will loosen any build up of sludge causing any oil leaks to worsen and oil pressure to fall due to the higher bearing clearances. If however the engine is clean and in good condition an older engine will enjoy the same benefits as a new one. There is a myth that seals and gaskets on an old engine are not designed for synthetics and synthetics will damage them. This is not so.
If I had an old engine in doubtful condition I would probably stick with mineral oil but if like me you have a totally rebuilt Perkins 4018 which is in near new condition and has no oil leaks even when worked hard I would use a modern synthetic designed for diesel engines to keep it that way!
 
Because these Perkins engines were originally fitted in Massey Ferguson Engines in particular a MF 35, you could go on a Vintage Tractor Forum and ask what they use.
Also as there are umpteen Massey Ferguson Tractor Dealers all round the UK who keep parts for these engines you could always telephone them and ask what oil they recommend (sell) for these engines. You would be able to buy a 25 litre container quite cheaply.
A suggestion if you dont mind. In the days when oil cost peanuts, at our garage it was normal when doing an oil change (every 6000 miles) to use flushing oil.
I still believe in that, I always now if I buy a boat with an inboard diesel use flushing oil first.
 
boatmike said:
Modern synthetics reduce sludge, keep engines cleaner have longer life and are less hydroscopic. Generally people have used older mineral oils on clapped out engines because they are cheaper and the detergents in mineral oils will loosen any build up of sludge causing any oil leaks to worsen and oil pressure to fall due to the higher bearing clearances. If however the engine is clean and in good condition an older engine will enjoy the same benefits as a new one. There is a myth that seals and gaskets on an old engine are not designed for synthetics and synthetics will damage them. This is not so.
If I had an old engine in doubtful condition I would probably stick with mineral oil but if like me you have a totally rebuilt Perkins 4018 which is in near new condition and has no oil leaks even when worked hard I would use a modern synthetic designed for diesel engines to keep it that way!
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Think you meant HYGROSCOPIC ? .... which is actually highly questionable item in this matter.

Your comment : "nd the detergents in mineral oils will loosen any build up of sludge causing any oil leaks to worsen and oil pressure to fall due to the higher bearing clearances" seems to say that they should NOT use !!

TBH - lot of sales blurb there ... if you use reasonable oil and change regularly - it makes no difference in real terms.

If you really want to keep your engine clean - then do as jim@sea does ..... get some Flushing Oil and use that each change.
 
Happy to be corrected on spelling even if the point is somewhat pedantic. However mineral oils are significantly more likely to absorb and emulsify water. Fact. This is indeed a factor with marine engines that are not used often and condensation occurs in cold weather. Also please read my post again. I was talking about old engines in poor condition and said clearly that if I had an old engine in poor condition I would use mineral oil.
My original post asked if anyone could give me a good logical reason why an older engine in GOOD CONDITION would not benefit from a modern synthetic oil. Not an old worn engine with oil leaks and sludge build up. I still have not had an answer.
 
boatmike said:
Happy to be corrected on spelling even if the point is somewhat pedantic. However mineral oils are significantly more likely to absorb and emulsify water. Fact. This is indeed a factor with marine engines that are not used often and condensation occurs in cold weather. Also please read my post again. I was talking about old engines in poor condition and said clearly that if I had an old engine in poor condition I would use mineral oil.
My original post asked if anyone could give me a good logical reason why an older engine in GOOD CONDITION would not benefit from a modern synthetic oil. Not an old worn engine with oil leaks and sludge build up. I still have not had an answer.
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As a person who's business is oil ... I would say there is no good answer to your question as it really makes no real difference if you maintain and service your engine well.

I still ask why you say "detergents in mineral oils will loosen any build up of sludge causing any oil leaks to worsen and oil pressure to fall due to the higher bearing clearances " .... ALL oils mineral ... semi and full synthetic have detergents in .. and dispersants to assist in maintaining a 'clean' engine.

The major factor for any diesel engine in fact is not sludge or even moisture - its the acidic action that develops from gases and partial combusted fuels etc. that get washed into your oil - no matter what formula you use ...

If your oil has absorbed and emulsified water - then I would suggest oil changes have been neglected for very long significant period ......
Change it at reasonable intervals and it is not a problem.
 
Refueler said:
As a person who's business is oil ... I would say there is no good answer to your question as it really makes no real difference if you maintain and service your engine well.

I still ask why you say "detergents in mineral oils will loosen any build up of sludge causing any oil leaks to worsen and oil pressure to fall due to the higher bearing clearances " .... ALL oils mineral ... semi and full synthetic have detergents in .. and dispersants to assist in maintaining a 'clean' engine.

The major factor for any diesel engine in fact is not sludge or even moisture - its the acidic action that develops from gases and partial combusted fuels etc. that get washed into your oil - no matter what formula you use ...

If your oil has absorbed and emulsified water - then I would suggest oil changes have been neglected for very long significant period ......
Change it at reasonable intervals and it is not a problem.
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That's a much better answer than your previous and I I agree with your point regarding the acidic by-products of combustion completely. Disregarding all else it is a good reason for regular oil changes regardless of the class of oil you use and if like most of us you leave your boat idle most of the winter you don't want to leave corrosive stuff in your engine overwinter. For this reason I have always advised changing the engine oil when laying up the boat, not in the spring before using it again like many do.
I also agree that many mineral oils contain detergents but modern synthetics perform considerably better in terms of cleaning the engine than older and cheaper mineral oils do. That's why if you have an old sludgy clapped out engine its not a good idea to just decide to swap over to synthetic. Its also not going to be effective as frankly the damage is already done....... So its not a matter of good or bad. Its a matter of degrees . Semi-Synth works better than Mineral. True Synth is better than both. That's in lubricating properties, detergent properties and incidentally in countering the effects of acid by-products and water emulsification. Putting a modern fully Synthetic in a clapped out engine however is a waste of time and money and may do more harm than good.
HOWEVER there is basically no difference in the lubrication requirement of a modern marine diesel and an older model (disregarding condition) and if like me you are lucky enough to have a fully rebuilt old Perkins that has new bearings, pistons, valves and stems etc, and runs like a Swiss watch then it's worth giving it the best regardless of cost. Oh. BTW I am not someone who works in the oil industry, but I am a qualified engineer and have rebuilt quite a few engines in my 77 years. I have also been very active as a vintage and veteran vehicle owner. Old engines need not die, they just become uneconomical to rebuild due to neglect. The worst form of neglect is to use cheap oil and not change it regularly. Also it is a fact that any engine is prone to water build up internally due to condensation. Usually this water is driven off as steam when the engine gets hot but less so if it's only used intermittently and never gets hot for long. This is a major cause of sludge building up in the first place and old an cheaper mineral oils are not as good in terms of emulsification and water retention as modern synthetics are. Generally you pays yer money and takes yer choice So generally I guess we agree but I will keep using top grade synthetic in my old Perkins and expect it to live as long as I do!
 
Don't forget that when these Perkins engines were introduced in the 1950 / 60s MultiGrade Oil had not been invented. There was no such thing as 10w40 or 20w50. You had basic oil, 20s,30,s 40,s 50s then you went onto Gear Box & Rear axle oils, 80,s 90,s 120,s 140.s.
Although its 50 years since I was a Hepolite Piston Ring Specialist and I also used to fit "Cord" rings to engines with worn bores, I believe that then there there were larger tolerances between piston & bore.
Engines then were designed to run on ordinary single grade oil. And they ran at lower revs.
The bigger gap between piston & bore allowed the fitting of Cord Oil Rings which were bigger than the standard ring and reduced the burning of oil without requiring the necessity to have a rebore.
There was an occasion in 1982 when I had a Ford 2 litre Granada/Consul which had come in because of an engine rattle.
This was the overhead camshaft 2 litre engine. It had been a taxi and the oil passages feeding the oil to the camshafts had blocked up hence the rattle.
The inside of the rocker cover was so thick with black goo you needed a scraper to remove it.
Although I cleaned the rockers the noise was still there so I filled it with flushing oil and ran it at tick over for 2 hours and the noise went.
Again in 2008 I had bought a MX5 which had a Cam Follower noise.
Again using flushing oils for over an hour, the noise slowly went away. And after filling it with ordinary oil it never came back.
If you value any engine flushing the engine to get rid of any buts of sediment can only extend the life of the engine.
.
 
Jim@sea said:
Don't forget that when these Perkins engines were introduced in the 1950 / 60s MultiGrade Oil had not been invented. There was no such thing as 10w40 or 20w50. You had basic oil, 20s,30,s 40,s 50s then you went onto Gear Box & Rear axle oils, 80,s 90,s 120,s 140.s.
Although its 50 years since I was a Hepolite Piston Ring Specialist and I also used to fit "Cord" rings to engines with worn bores, I believe that then there there were larger tolerances between piston & bore.
Engines then were designed to run on ordinary single grade oil. And they ran at lower revs.
The bigger gap between piston & bore allowed the fitting of Cord Oil Rings which were bigger than the standard ring and reduced the burning of oil without requiring the necessity to have a rebore.
There was an occasion in 1982 when I had a Ford 2 litre Granada/Consul which had come in because of an engine rattle.
This was the overhead camshaft 2 litre engine. It had been a taxi and the oil passages feeding the oil to the camshafts had blocked up hence the rattle.
The inside of the rocker cover was so thick with black goo you needed a scraper to remove it.
Although I cleaned the rockers the noise was still there so I filled it with flushing oil and ran it at tick over for 2 hours and the noise went.
Again in 2008 I had bought a MX5 which had a Cam Follower noise.
Again using flushing oils for over an hour, the noise slowly went away. And after filling it with ordinary oil it never came back.
If you value any engine flushing the engine to get rid of any buts of sediment can only extend the life of the engine.
.
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I used to help at Blackbrook Service Garage in return for access to lift and tools to work my race car. I did mostly car electrics - met my first wife because her Viva wouldn't start !! ....

But your mentioning goop inside rocker cover ......... reminds me of the many engines that came in with loads of goop there ... and many of them were using Castrol GTX !!
It turned me of their products for life !! We always used Duckhams in that service .... never saw goop with that.
 
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