simon
Well-Known Member
Is it possible to purchase a marina berth using a self administered pension?
Pensions
- Thread starter simon
- Start date
petem
Well-Known Member
nice idea.....
.....but I don't think so. I believe that it's up to the revenue what you can and can't invest in.
Try: http://www.inlandrevenue.gov.uk/pensionschemes/pso3.pdf
I don't have a pdf viewer on my puter so let me know if it helps.
You could also try the James Hay web site as they are a player in the Income Drawdown market.
.....but I don't think so. I believe that it's up to the revenue what you can and can't invest in.
Try: http://www.inlandrevenue.gov.uk/pensionschemes/pso3.pdf
I don't have a pdf viewer on my puter so let me know if it helps.
You could also try the James Hay web site as they are a player in the Income Drawdown market.
tripleace
Well-Known Member
SIPP / SSAS
As an IFA, and operator of a SIPP personally, it is not possible to own a berth through either a sipp or a ssas.
The rules are that you cannot use the investment for leisure activity or domestic housing. It must be commercial!
You may find it possible to purchase agricultral land which is an acceptable investment. If a river unfortunately went through this land or to one side that would be a shame!!!!!!!!!
Professional advice is required and I agree that James Hay are the largest SIPP mangers.
I sugget the way you word such a request is as important as the subject of the request.
For what it is worth I think sheep / chicken / Rabbit farming with water for the animals would be acceptable. It would also be a shame if you could only afford one chicken or rabbit!
The argument is if you have a small holding, whether the leisure activity is not on the land (ie 6ins off the land on fenders). All will be ok until a market valuation and they find your sunseeker.
When looking for advice ask the adviser how many SIPP and SSAS thay have sold and how many clients they have operating this type of investment. Don't use them unless they can prove they understand these products. You do not want to pay for them to learn!
Good luck
www.cleverdic.co.uk
"If you don't need advice - you shouldn't have to pay for it"
As an IFA, and operator of a SIPP personally, it is not possible to own a berth through either a sipp or a ssas.
The rules are that you cannot use the investment for leisure activity or domestic housing. It must be commercial!
You may find it possible to purchase agricultral land which is an acceptable investment. If a river unfortunately went through this land or to one side that would be a shame!!!!!!!!!
Professional advice is required and I agree that James Hay are the largest SIPP mangers.
I sugget the way you word such a request is as important as the subject of the request.
For what it is worth I think sheep / chicken / Rabbit farming with water for the animals would be acceptable. It would also be a shame if you could only afford one chicken or rabbit!
The argument is if you have a small holding, whether the leisure activity is not on the land (ie 6ins off the land on fenders). All will be ok until a market valuation and they find your sunseeker.
When looking for advice ask the adviser how many SIPP and SSAS thay have sold and how many clients they have operating this type of investment. Don't use them unless they can prove they understand these products. You do not want to pay for them to learn!
Good luck
www.cleverdic.co.uk
"If you don't need advice - you shouldn't have to pay for it"
jfm
Well-Known Member
Re: q for 3ace
tripleace would it be ok if the pension plan bort the mooring, then rented it to him at market rates? so a commercial activity, right. ok, he would need to have the cash flow to pay the rent, but ultimately he's only shuffling his own money around? Or he cd rent it to his mate, then he takes his mates mooring next door and pays the marina? or something along these lines?
tripleace would it be ok if the pension plan bort the mooring, then rented it to him at market rates? so a commercial activity, right. ok, he would need to have the cash flow to pay the rent, but ultimately he's only shuffling his own money around? Or he cd rent it to his mate, then he takes his mates mooring next door and pays the marina? or something along these lines?
tripleace
Well-Known Member
Re: q for 3ace
Answer is no because it is a leisure activity. even though a commercial deal it is still leisure.
when I bought my morring, I looked at putting it into my sipp and calling it agricultral land and claiming that no leisure activity on the land. This would be true because the leisure activity would be 6 inchs off the land. I even promised we would all be unhappy whilst crossing the property. Truth is this is just going to far.
I also thought this was a bit risky as its only 90ft by 50ft . powers that be would look seriously at agri land which was not in acres and was in feet.
I actually did go as far as to get some serious question anwered about this (half the truth told to SIPP manager) but, there are a whole load of rules on the sipp owner getting a benefit from the investment. I elected not to do it. If you were talking about a small holding you could probably get away with it. Ie use the excuse that boat is only there occassionally etc.
In balance I think its a nice idea to talk about down the pub but the facts are, if you do it and use it as a private mooring, the risk of being found out are just to high.
www.cleverdic.co.uk
"if you don't need advice - you should not have to pay for it"
Answer is no because it is a leisure activity. even though a commercial deal it is still leisure.
when I bought my morring, I looked at putting it into my sipp and calling it agricultral land and claiming that no leisure activity on the land. This would be true because the leisure activity would be 6 inchs off the land. I even promised we would all be unhappy whilst crossing the property. Truth is this is just going to far.
I also thought this was a bit risky as its only 90ft by 50ft . powers that be would look seriously at agri land which was not in acres and was in feet.
I actually did go as far as to get some serious question anwered about this (half the truth told to SIPP manager) but, there are a whole load of rules on the sipp owner getting a benefit from the investment. I elected not to do it. If you were talking about a small holding you could probably get away with it. Ie use the excuse that boat is only there occassionally etc.
In balance I think its a nice idea to talk about down the pub but the facts are, if you do it and use it as a private mooring, the risk of being found out are just to high.
www.cleverdic.co.uk
"if you don't need advice - you should not have to pay for it"
halcyon
Well-Known Member
Re: 3ace
Tripleace still running then, was that engine bay a pain in the ****.
Brian
Tripleace still running then, was that engine bay a pain in the ****.
Brian
simon
Well-Known Member
Re: SIPP / SSAS
How about forming a company - "Cheap Med Berths Ltd" for example - and then a number of people buying a % of the company via
SSAS? Would this be classed as commercial investment?
How about forming a company - "Cheap Med Berths Ltd" for example - and then a number of people buying a % of the company via
SSAS? Would this be classed as commercial investment?
tripleace
Well-Known Member
Re: 3ace
its not that bad actually
will be better when the jet units get installed
its not that bad actually
will be better when the jet units get installed
hlb
RIP
I've cashed mine in now. So not up to date and forgot what I ever new. You could once buy a house in spain or a race horse. But every year they knocked off one thing then another. Also think you can not have any involvement. or only 5%, but I'd have to check. You can buy commercial property, but after that??
No one can force me to come here-----------
----- I'm a Volunteer!!!
Haydn
No one can force me to come here-----------
----- I'm a Volunteer!!!
Haydn
tripleace
Well-Known Member
Re: SIPP / SSAS
SIPP
SIPP Commercial Property
An Outline
A SIPP may be used to purchase a freehold or leasehold commercial property, including land.
Residential property may not be acquired through a SIPP.
A property may not be acquired from a Member or a "connected person".
The purchase price must be within a margin plus or minus 10% of the open market value of the property as confirmed by qualified valuers.
The valuation must be addressed to James Hay Pension Trustees Limited and the fee is paid from the Member's fund.
The property must not have any covenants or liabilities attached to it including environmental problems which are unacceptable to us.
The SIPP Member and/or their advisers must ensure that the purchase price of the property and all associated costs are available from permitted pension contributions, transfers or secured lending. This must be in place before we can make a contract to purchase the property.
The loan offer and the subsequent loan must be in our name (i.e. James Hay Pension Trustees Limited) and we must be satisfied that the rental income from the property is more than sufficient to meet the repayments and other costs of dealing with the property.
The secured lender must agree that our liability under any mortgage will be limited to the assets of the particular pension fund and our other procedural requirements.
A property can be bought for the benefit of more than one SIPP Member. In that case they benefit in the shares of their financial contribution to the purchase costs.
We will be the legal owner of the property and the landlord for letting purposes. We use an external property management company to assist us in managing the properties.
A property may be bought subject to existing leases if they are on acceptable terms. A vacant property should be let from completion. The tenant may be a SIPP Member or business partner or an independent third party but the letting must be on commercial terms approved by a qualified valuer.
If VAT is payable on the purchase price, the SIPP Member must make arrangements for a bank overdraft until the VAT is recovered from Customs & Excise. Even if VAT is not payable at completion there may be circumstances where the property can be made subject to VAT after completion. VAT is then payable on the rent. James Hay Pension Trustees Limited deals with all VAT procedures relating to the property investment.
The Property Questionnaire is designed to provide a framework for supplying much of the information required to enable us to consider a proposal. Download below.
SSAS
different rules, benefits limited at exit.
SIPP does not have this problem as benefits are limited by contribution (ie premiums) and not based on final salary.
broadly similar rules about Domestic and Leisure.
The problem is own use soley down to commercial deal. if serious it would good idea to buzz it past regulator
the problem with forming a company is the fund required value to purchase the property SSAS has different rules on loans and is again limited based on salary levels.
A collection of people satrting a SSAS need to understand that 100% agreement needs to be made before anything can be down. ie best if same age so that when retirement comes eveyone wants the same thing.
A ssas has the benefits limited at retirement and if no profit/salary then pension fund can't provide a retire for you. (ie max pension = year 2/3 final salary if max years of service) and if salary from ltd company zero, then 2/3's of zero is not a lot, even if the fund is a million quid. you can't get it out of the fund.
There are a whole load of over funding issues as well
www.cleverdic.co.uk
if you don't need advice - you should not have to pay for it
SIPP
SIPP Commercial Property
An Outline
A SIPP may be used to purchase a freehold or leasehold commercial property, including land.
Residential property may not be acquired through a SIPP.
A property may not be acquired from a Member or a "connected person".
The purchase price must be within a margin plus or minus 10% of the open market value of the property as confirmed by qualified valuers.
The valuation must be addressed to James Hay Pension Trustees Limited and the fee is paid from the Member's fund.
The property must not have any covenants or liabilities attached to it including environmental problems which are unacceptable to us.
The SIPP Member and/or their advisers must ensure that the purchase price of the property and all associated costs are available from permitted pension contributions, transfers or secured lending. This must be in place before we can make a contract to purchase the property.
The loan offer and the subsequent loan must be in our name (i.e. James Hay Pension Trustees Limited) and we must be satisfied that the rental income from the property is more than sufficient to meet the repayments and other costs of dealing with the property.
The secured lender must agree that our liability under any mortgage will be limited to the assets of the particular pension fund and our other procedural requirements.
A property can be bought for the benefit of more than one SIPP Member. In that case they benefit in the shares of their financial contribution to the purchase costs.
We will be the legal owner of the property and the landlord for letting purposes. We use an external property management company to assist us in managing the properties.
A property may be bought subject to existing leases if they are on acceptable terms. A vacant property should be let from completion. The tenant may be a SIPP Member or business partner or an independent third party but the letting must be on commercial terms approved by a qualified valuer.
If VAT is payable on the purchase price, the SIPP Member must make arrangements for a bank overdraft until the VAT is recovered from Customs & Excise. Even if VAT is not payable at completion there may be circumstances where the property can be made subject to VAT after completion. VAT is then payable on the rent. James Hay Pension Trustees Limited deals with all VAT procedures relating to the property investment.
The Property Questionnaire is designed to provide a framework for supplying much of the information required to enable us to consider a proposal. Download below.
SSAS
different rules, benefits limited at exit.
SIPP does not have this problem as benefits are limited by contribution (ie premiums) and not based on final salary.
broadly similar rules about Domestic and Leisure.
The problem is own use soley down to commercial deal. if serious it would good idea to buzz it past regulator
the problem with forming a company is the fund required value to purchase the property SSAS has different rules on loans and is again limited based on salary levels.
A collection of people satrting a SSAS need to understand that 100% agreement needs to be made before anything can be down. ie best if same age so that when retirement comes eveyone wants the same thing.
A ssas has the benefits limited at retirement and if no profit/salary then pension fund can't provide a retire for you. (ie max pension = year 2/3 final salary if max years of service) and if salary from ltd company zero, then 2/3's of zero is not a lot, even if the fund is a million quid. you can't get it out of the fund.
There are a whole load of over funding issues as well
www.cleverdic.co.uk
if you don't need advice - you should not have to pay for it
halcyon
Well-Known Member
Re: 3ace
Allways found it a pain when it was new, glad she's still going ok.
Brian
Allways found it a pain when it was new, glad she's still going ok.
Brian
tripleace
Well-Known Member
Re: 3ace
what did you do on her when she was younger
what did you do on her when she was younger
halcyon
Well-Known Member
Re: 3ace
Used to supply Sealine with all there switch panels and battery chargers.
Owner spent cristmass and new year on her, managed to blow up battery charger, when we looked at it with all your cabin lights on you can pull over 40 amp. He had the heating on, fridges on as well, with a 20 amp charger, after that all boats had a heavier charger.
Mind you there was always something about having 3 engines, think they only built around 2 more, so also a bit unique.
Brian
Used to supply Sealine with all there switch panels and battery chargers.
Owner spent cristmass and new year on her, managed to blow up battery charger, when we looked at it with all your cabin lights on you can pull over 40 amp. He had the heating on, fridges on as well, with a 20 amp charger, after that all boats had a heavier charger.
Mind you there was always something about having 3 engines, think they only built around 2 more, so also a bit unique.
Brian
tripleace
Well-Known Member
Re: 3ace
replaced all the electrics, charger was busted when we bought tripleace
replaced all the electrics, charger was busted when we bought tripleace