Payment of VAT in Greece ?

VAT must have been paid at some time for a privately owned vessel in the EU

bbg the first person that bought the boat from the maker will have paid vat on it, or had it 'accounted for'.
Normally, if you have the paperwork from the full chain of ownership, the first document will mention VAT inclusive or some such term.

It all depends on whether gregorymc meant that he hadn't paid vat on his purchase or that the vessel wasn't vat paid - eg. ex charter.

If vat was never paid on the vessel, it is due, if it is to sail in EU waters as a vessel privately owned by an EU resident.

See link below. BTW, the issue of being able to refer a problem back to HMRC by producing a Bill of Sale only applies if the transaction was in the UK.

Also, with a boat; it carries a vat debt with it if vat was never paid at any time since the supply of the vessel when new to the first owner is the taxable event that must be accounted for.
:cool:

Here is some of the relevant text:
6.2 Do I have to pay VAT on a vessel to be kept in the EU?
Yes, if you are buying a new pleasure craft in the EU and intend to keep it in the EU, you will have to pay VAT on the purchase price. If you are keeping the vessel in the UK, the VAT due will be payable in the UK. If you buy the vessel in one Member State but intend to keep the vessel in another Member State, you should consult VAT Notice 728 Motor vehicles, boats, aircraft: intra-EC movements by persons not registrable for VAT which covers this in more detail.

6.3 What documents will be required to provide proof of the VAT status on a used vessel?
EU residents should only use a vessel in the Community if it is VAT paid or ‘deemed’ VAT paid. Documentary evidence supporting this should be carried at all times as you may be asked by customs officials in other Member States to provide evidence of your vessel’s VAT status. Documentary evidence might include:

■original invoice or receipt;
■evidence that VAT was paid at importation; and/or
■invoices for materials used in the construction of a ‘Home-Built’ vessel.
A registration document on its own does not prove the VAT status of the vessel, as there is no link in the UK between the registry of the vessel and the payment of VAT. If you have difficulty in providing the information, you should contact our National Advice Service.

Certain vessels that were in use as private pleasure craft prior to 1 January 1985 and were in the EU on 31 December 1992, may be deemed VAT paid under the Single Market transitional arrangements. As Austria, Finland and Sweden joined the EU later, the relevant dates for vessels in these countries are ‘in use’ before 1 January 1987 and moored in EU on 31 December 1994.



http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channels...rtyType=document&id=HMCE_CL_000289#P251_27517
 
to Tranoma

Re UK resident - since gregorymc says he's currently based in Poros and on a previus post says he does his boating in Southern Ireland, there is no certainty that he is a UK resident.
It's one of the questions I asked in an earlier post.
Re noone (according to you) having ever been asked to produce proof of VAT paid status, there are many posts stating the contrary.
Strictly speaking, the person or entity responsible for the taxable event is ultimately liable, as you say. However, it is the owner of the vessel at the time of discovery who has to pay. He can then pursue the other party through the courts.:cool:
 
plato-gb said:
Also, with a boat; it carries a vat debt with it if vat was never paid at any time since the supply of the vessel when new to the first owner is the taxable event that must be accounted for.
Click to expand...
Can you please provide us with the statute or regulation that says that a boat "carries a vat debt"? I for one would be very interested to see it.

I do have copies of documents (not originals - they were retained by the Douaniers in France where I bought the boat) tracing the ownership all the way back to the original owner. But not a VAT receipt in sight. And I'm still not worried.
 
bbg - I'm saying that a vessel that never had vat paid doesn't 'become' vat paid because of a succession of transactions between private individuals which are, in themselves, not taxable events.
When the boat leaves the yard and goes to it's first owner, if that owner is a private individual, his invoice will include vat and this will be stated somehow.
If the boat was originally French, it might be 'TTC' which stands for Toutes Taxes Comprises - including all taxes.
How come they kept your originals?
:cool:
 
Tranona said:
Plato. I am sorry, but you are just wrong. If the Bill of Sale is between two UK residents (as seems to be the case) then any VAT issues are the responsibility of UK HMRC. This is EU wide, so there is no reason why any official in any other country should ask to see proof of VAT paid. If you are a nerd like me and follow this subject closely on these fora and in the press, you will find there is no credible evidence that this is not the case. The RYA have also carried out surveys to find cases without success.

Where people have had issues with proof of VAT it is because there is an issue about the ownership of the boat or the nature of the transaction. The most common examples are home built boats where there is no Bill of Sale and it is necessary to keep records of VAT payments on at least the major components, boats that are bought outside the EU and boats that are bought from a VAT registered trader such as mine. Even then, if I did not have the receipt, I would not be charged VAT - because it was the responsibility of the trader to account for the VAT, not me.

The OP has already confirmed that he bought the boat from a UK citizen, so if his Bill of Sale records this correctly there is absloutely no way any customs could ask him to pay VAT because there is no transaction. As I have already said even if there was an irregularity in the past - it is not his responsibility, but the responsibility of the seller that committed the offence. However, if the offence was committed more than 6 years previously it is almost impossible to prove one way or the other as there is no obligation for a VAT registered trader to keep records for longer than that. There are no records of the transaction other than the trader's records and the invoice to the purchaser.

There is a lot of misinformation surrounding this subject, such as yours - but of course if you have documented proof that private individuals have been forced to pay VAT by any customs authorities except where the boat has been brought in from outside the EU, then please share it with us.
Click to expand...
Stewart
theres always one, typical tooth sucker, I bet he props a bar up well!!
Stu
 
plato-gb said:
Re UK resident - since gregorymc says he's currently based in Poros and on a previus post says he does his boating in Southern Ireland, there is no certainty that he is a UK resident.
It's one of the questions I asked in an earlier post.
Re noone (according to you) having ever been asked to produce proof of VAT paid status, there are many posts stating the contrary.
Strictly speaking, the person or entity responsible for the taxable event is ultimately liable, as you say. However, it is the owner of the vessel at the time of discovery who has to pay. He can then pursue the other party through the courts.:cool:
Click to expand...
Wrong!
 
what I (and I think Tranona) am saying is that (in your example) the original transaction was a VATable event, and the vendor had an obligation to account for VAT. Not the purchaser. Not subsequent purchasers.

If the original event was not a VATable transaction (or more precisely, if VAT was reclaimed), there will, at some point in the chain towards private ownership, be a VATable event. That event will attract the tax.

In neither case does the obligation to pay tax attach to the boat. The obligation is a personal obligation (and I use personal in the broadest sense, including companies) owed by the vendor (or importer) at the taxable event.

I give up. I'm not an expert. I commend you to read jfm's comments on this thread. If his reasoned discussion doesn't convince you, nothing will.

BTW - they kept the original registration documents because I de-registered from the French registration and re-registered on Pt. 3. When you de-register, they keep the originals. But I made copies before I sent it to them. Their system of registration is very neat - there is a registration book that stays with the vessel throughout its life (while it is registered in France). None of the hassle of Pt. 1 registration, but neat proof of ownership. And no mention of VAT anywhere.
 
vat payments on boats

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2003/0513/1052725252605.html
one instance.............
and in 2008 a number of boat owners in the UK were sent letters by HMRC asking for proof of vat status. Once the owners had sent this to HMRC and it was found to be in order, they got a letter back saying all was satifactory. I have been in contact with one of them who was kind enough to send me scans of the letters from HMRC requesting the documentation and the reply once he'd complied.
I haven't been in touch with anyone who did not have the appropriate documentation to send, so I don't know what happened to them.
These letters were sent in an apparently random way. The addressee I was in contact with received the letter out of the blue: the Marina had given his details to the HMRC patrol without informing him. This was in the UK.
:cool:
 
Plato

Firstly I cannot read the detail of the Irish case(s)

Secondly, I did not say that there have not been cases where VAT fraud has been detected and penalties issued, including a payment of VAT. But they will not simply because of a failure or inability to produce a VAT invoice - simply because that is not an offence.

Examples of what could be an offence is a business reclaiming VAT paid as an input tax when the boat was not used for the business, or importing a boat from outside the EU without paying duty and tax. In each of these cases it could be an individual who committed the fraud and paid the penalty.

The UK example you quoted is probably HMRC acting on information which suggests a fraud might have been committed - not random as there is nothing in law that allows them to randomly ask for proof.

Anyway, neither of these examples is remotely like your suugestion that a Spanish customs officer (for example) could demand VAT payment from a visiting English yachtsman just because he was unable to produce a VAT receipt.

Suggest if you want to engage with this subject you read the extensive material on the RYA site and HMRC Reference Note No8 on their site. This will tell you pretty much everything you need to know about VAT rules.
 
" As I and others have pointed out, there is no evidence that ordinary yachtsmen are asked to produce evidence of VAT when moving around the EU with a privately owned EU boat."

This in itself is not enough. EG A private boat owner may be exercising a business activity with his boat in foreign waters. The authorities of that country may wish to check that he is not competing unfairly with local boats which have a lot of imposed charges.

A private owner may also reclaim VAT if he exercises a professional activity with his boat. Therefore, if the boat goes from a tax free situation, ie owned by a company or owned by an individual who declares an activity, to a private individual, then the VAT needs to be paid.

"All the responsibility for accounting for VAT is with the seller, not the buyer (as I remind myself every time I do my VAT return). "

Except in the case of imports where the the buyer must declare and pay the VAT but then can immediately deduct it, provided he has the VAT number of the vendor.

John
 
Last edited:
Sybarite

You are just confusing the issue. If a boat is engaging in commercial activities in another country the owner may be subject to local laws, which may involve taxes, licences, special registration, compliance with safety requirements, crewing requirements and so on. Can't imagine a situation where VAT in the way you describe could be an issue.

What is so special about your second example. If a VAT registered person or company sells a boat to a private individual and the boat was owned as a business asset and VAT had been reclaimed on it as an input tax then of course the vendor has to account for VAT. This is exactly the case with my boat - even though I was always the beneficial owner it was legally owned by a Greek charter company (to comply with the then current Greek registry requirements), but when ownership was transferred to me I paid VAT and the charter company accounted for it.

I am confused by your last statement. If the importer is a VAT registered trader and the boat comes from another state, he does not pay VAT to his vendor, but charges VAT when he sells it and accounts for the VAT in the normal way.

The only situation where an individual pays VAT direct to HMRC is for a personal import. It is this situation where potentially offences occur involving individuals who fail to declare imports. Potentially common coming from the Channel Islands to UK and Eire, from Gibraltar to Spain, Croatia to Italy, Turkey to Greece - indeed anywhere where there is an EU and Non EU state in close proximity.
 
French registration is proof of vat paid

bbg - When you register a pleasure vessel in France (if more than 7.5 m) one of the things you have to supply, if it's a new boat, is original and copies of the invoice, if second hand vessel changing ownership - original and copies of Bill of Sale.
This way there is seamless tracking of the status of the vessel.
ie. the first person who registered the boat in France (if it was French built) had to supply invoice which would have confirmed vat paid from builder/dealer.

If the boat was originally bought outside France, in order to register, owner must supply a "certificat fiscal" - issued by customs which confirms boat's fiscal status. Outside France means exactly that, outside the French territory and can apply to anywhere in the EU.
This system means that a boat is eligible for French registration only if it is VAT paid.

Your VAT paid status is therefore proved at the time of the de-registration.
Documents à fournir relatifs aux navires Première immatriculation
Original et copie(s) de la facture et/ou de l’acte de vente (1)
Certificat fiscal (pour les navires de plus de 7,5 m achetés hors de France)

You can find the full text:
http://vosdroits.service-public.fr/F833.xhtml
 
Tranona said:
This is way out of date. VAT has been payable on ex charter boats since 2002. I bought my boat through Chris Hawes/Kiriacoulis and paid VAT at 19% when it was transferred at the end of the contract. I have the receipt.
Click to expand...

Yes you right it was before 2002. I have seen the same the same piece of paper . "All taxs paid." on transaction from after that date. I sold a SunCharm 39 with one in 2004. It was a ex charter boat that I sold on

Red
 
plato-gb said:
bbg -

If the boat was originally bought outside France, in order to register, owner must supply a "certificat fiscal" - issued by customs which confirms boat's fiscal status. Outside France means exactly that, outside the French territory and can apply to anywhere in the EU.
Click to expand...


I have never done this for a boat, but as a founder of a French company to get certain subsidies, tax credits, interest free loans etc. I have had to supply a large number of "certificat fiscal", and "attestation fiscal" for both myself and for the company.

For this I have to go to the tax office with my ID card, and if it is for the company with the Kbis (the companies registration), they look it up on the computer and then hand fill out a form and put a stamp on it. Takes about 5 minutes.

I imagine for a boat you take the bill of sale (between two EU private residents), the old registration document (or official proof of deregistration) and your "carte de sejour" (you need to be resident to register a boat in France) and they will do the same kind of thing.

On this VAT thing, Tranona has it exactly right.

But why would anyone want to register a boat in France?
Even if you are resident (and French)?
 
reddragon44 said:
Yes you right it was before 2002. I have seen the same the same piece of paper . "All taxs paid." on transaction from after that date. I sold a SunCharm 39 with one in 2004. It was a ex charter boat that I sold on

Red
Click to expand...

Yes, as with all things Greek consistency is not a big thing. The law was changed in 2002 (May I think). It was important to me as I bought my boat in 2001, knowing that the law was likely to change. However, I have it on good authority (but no proof) that the "VAT office" in Corfu was still issuing such letters as late as 2004!

It was really difficult to get definitive information and it was only when I came to pay the VAT in 2007 that I found out the basis for VAT and also learned (to my cost) that the value was calculated on the exchange rate of the Drachma into Euro on entry into the common currency, rather than on the DM cost of the boat in 2001.
 
michaelchapman - I was only talking about the French system to confirm to bbg that since a boat has to be vat paid in order to qualify for French registration, his boat is definitely vat paid and he has the proof of this: ie. the French registration document or 'Pavillion', as they call it.

This thread started with a question about vat paid proof for boats.
:cool:
 
Tranoma, to return to VAT - all the legistlation - both from the EU and HMRC as well as other EU states and the RYA advice, states that you must carry proof of boat's vat status at all times.
I have given a few of the many documents that litter the internet regarding those who have been penalised because they didn't have these documents - either because the vat had not been paid on import or because the documents they did submit were not genuine. I have explained that HMRC did random spot checks on vessels moored in UK ports to get verification from boat owners on vat status.
There is ample proof, both legislative and anecdotal regarding this.
Why do you persist in your assertion that customs across the EU cannot/will not/do not demand proof of vat status?
:cool:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Share this page

Top