macd
Well-Known Member
I have, in and out of the EU with her for the past eight years. No-one's shown the slightest interest.
Tranona knows his stuff on VAT. You'd do well to give credence to his observations.
Paying VAT on a used boat in Europe
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I have, in and out of the EU with her for the past eight years. No-one's shown the slightest interest.
Tranona knows his stuff on VAT. You'd do well to give credence to his observations.
SailorBill
Well-Known Member
Here we go again
...For those interested, here is another thread concerning VAT and boats. Tranona likes to refer people to the RYA and HMRC to support his arguments but when HMRC is quoted and referenced he then changes his tune. Read the whole thread here http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=338104
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vyv_cox
Well-Known Member
My boat was built in 1984/5, so right on the cusp of the VAT requirement. I do not have any VAT-paid paperwork although I have photocopies of the stage payment receipts dating from the boat's build.
The boat has not been based in UK since mid-1997. We lived and sailed in Holland until the end of 2003, since when we have sailed steadily to Greece via Belgium, UK, France, Spain, Italy. We have been approached or boarded by customs and other officials many times for the purposes of showing documents. None has shown the slightest interest in VAT status, bill of sale or anything other than registration, ICC and insurance.
Otter
Well-Known Member
Indeed - it is a charming myth that customs officials show any interest in VAT status. There are cases were belligerence or obvious suspicions have been raised and further enquiries made, but for private owners channel hopping on yachts a few years old there is truly no issue whatsoever. If anyone at all on this forum has first hand (not 'my mate' or 'I heard') evidence then I challenge them to present it. I have been asked for ship's papers on a number of occasions but never once has VAT been raised and at the time the yacht was 10 years old. We now have a 1977 special so not a myth that applies to us anymore.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
Here we go again
...For those interested, here is another thread concerning VAT and boats. Tranona likes to refer people to the RYA and HMRC to support his arguments but when HMRC is quoted and referenced he then changes his tune. Read the whole thread here http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=338104
I do not "change my tune" - certainly not as a consequence of anything that you say. I have read everything you have referred to and it does not change my views, which are well supported by what happens in practice. If you prefer to belief the myths that is your affair.
What HMRC "quote" is not necessarily the law and is often contradictory - simply because many of their statements have not been tested in the courts and are often an expression of what they would like it to be rather than what is.
Just to make it clear. A private person cannot commit a VAT offence except if they import a boat into the EU without declaring it. VAT offences can only be committed otherwise by VAT registered entities.
People who have difficulty with customs authorities over VAT will be suspected of not accounting for VAT properly which means they are either smugglers or VAT registered entities who need to show they have accounted for VAT correctly.
People who legally own boats which they bought in a transaction that was not a chargeable event have nothing to fear.
Boo2
Well-Known Member
It would help to the tune of 15% of the boats selling price if the 5% special offer on VAT in Croatia can be made to apply.
Boo2
Tranona
Well-Known Member
You have a few independent accounts here confirming that foreign authorities are not interested in general in VAT on visiting boats. You will find the same in the survey carried out by the RYA and in many reports from liveaboard cruisers who travel all over the EU. Literally hundreds of people take their boats to Europe every year without any problems.
This does not mean that foreign officials, just like HMRC do not act against people they suspect of VAT offences in relation to boats. There are many possible offences usually related to wealthy people trying to arrange their affairs such that they can continue to use their boats privately in the EU without paying VAT or reducing the amount they pay. This usually involves offshore ownership or leasing arrangements, or simply reclaiming VAT on the boat as a business asset but using it as a private asset. Some of these arrangements are legal in some countries, others not. Customs are not stupid and concentrate their efforts on identifying such potential offenders. Why should they waste their time on somebody like you with a 40 year old boat worth £2k when there is not the remotest possibility you have committed any offence, nor do they have any right to charge you VAT.
Just as an example, I purchased my boat through a perfectly legal scheme in Greece which enabled me to effectively halve the amount of VAT I paid. The scheme is legal in Greece and I have a receipt showing the amount of VAT I paid. I also have confirmation from the Greek company that arranged it that the scheme has Greek customs approval. It is unlikely that HMRC would approve a similar scheme in the UK. However, my boat is in the UK perfectly legally and should anybody ever query it the Bill of Sale would show that I bought it in Greece so any issues about VAT would be the responsibility of the Greek authorities. So far nobody has asked. However, when I sell the boat there will be no VAT involved as I am a private citizen and whoever buys the boat can never be liable for any VAT, as the responsibility for accounting for VAT is with the Greek company that sold it to me.
Sorry if it sounds long winded, but although VAT is a very complex subject when you go into all the details, for the vast majority of people like you none of the complexities apply.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
Not even worth thinking about. The Croatian proposal applies to existing boats in Croatia owned by foreigners who have not paid VAT (because Croatia was outside the EU) and wish to continue to keep their boats in Croatia. It is conditional on registering the boat in Croatia and is only available for a short period. It is a way of encouraging foreigners not to take their boats out of the country. The notion that they would apply it to a boat that is in another non EU country just to get a bit of tax (as suggested by some) is fanciful. The EU would come down on them like a ton of bricks.
Uricanejack
Well-Known Member
Bought a boat in USA and sailed it home to Canada.
I arrived on a Sunday.
phoned Customs from port of entry. they told me to just take it home and bring it back on monday.
They seam to have simmilar training program.
Adrian_
N/A
Tranona, when you say "applies to existing boats in Croatia owned by foreigners who have not paid VAT (because Croatia was outside the EU) and wish to continue to keep their boats in Croatia" it implies that 1. the Croatian proposal applies to boats already present in Croatia as we speak and 2. it applies only to boats that will continue to be kept in Croatia. None of these are correct.
As for the last part, I wouldn't call it fanciful but let's not spin off the thread
.P.S. I think we already discussed on another topic the possibility to do the papers in a EU country while the boat is in a non-EU country and we agreed this was somewhere in the grey zone.
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SailorBill
Well-Known Member
Yes you do.
Anyone interested should read this thread or just jump to my summary of Tranona changing his tune in post #103 of the same thread.
For any newbies reading this I suggest you be wary of anything you read on this forum from Tranona relating to VAT (or broker's client accounts) because Tranona's specialist subjects are anything to do with preserving the status quo of the marine industry.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
Well, Bill, you are becoming a tiresome person because of your inability to read what is written.
You constantly refer to a boat being held in Spain over VAT issues and then being released after some time as evidence that lack of a VAT invoice on a boat bought privately in the UK might face problems.
It is nothing of the sort. You will recall, if you had bothered to read all of the information provided by others that very little was known about that case other than it was a boat, in Spain and there appeared to be some VAT irregularity which was sorted out. Hardly FACTS on which to comment about what the issues were.
VAT transactions involving boats are being investigated all the time - just not those related to boats bought privately from EU residents in the UK - simply because VAT is not involved. Similarly other states have no jurisdiction over such transactions so cannot take any of the actions you describe. If the Spanish authorities have investigated a boat it is because they suspect an offence has been committed that is within their jurisdiction.
You do seem to have difficulty in understanding that VAT is about transactions and not boats. Unless you have the facts about the transaction you cannot make any meaningful comment about whether an offence has been committed or not. You also need to understand that with the exception of a transaction that involved the private import of a boat from outside the EU it is impossible for a private individual to commit a VAT offence, nor to have any liability for unpaid VAT.
I really am sorry you seem so confused about these issues. I have tried to explain it as simply as possible. I have not "changed my tune" one little bit - I have simply rejected your example and explained why I have rejected it, because it does not show what you think it does. If you can provide a well evidenced example that somebody who owns a boat bought privately in the UK has ever been fined or had his boat impounded just because he did not have a VAT invoice, I will happily change my view.
BTW exactly the same with Brokers and client accounts. Would be interested to see evidence that a broker has stolen money from a client account. Have asked this many times in the interminable threads on the subject - and yet nobody has been able to provide a case. Does not mean that the risk does not exist, although less likely in recent times because of the clarification of structure of trust accounts.
Can't actually make sense of your last sentence, but my position is nothing to do with defending a status quo, it is simply countering the myths that exist without any substantiation from the people who promulgate the myth!
I am sure other people who read this are quite capable of making up their own minds about what makes sense and what does not, so will give your "warning" the weight it deserves.