Parsons Pike non starter. Marinised Ford 4D

[Chris/G]

The engine in question is a Parsons Pike marinised Ford 4D of questionable age my guess would be around 1950/60's. It has been in the boat since I bought it 28 years ago, always performed well.

It now refuses to start, fuel is getting to 3 of the 4 injectors only, fuel filter ok.

Where to start? I am not convinced that the injector pump Simms will come off with the engine in situ. Bad news.

I have disconnected each of the injector pipes at the injector and turned the engine over, I have spurts of diesel showing on 3 of them but nothing from the 4th. I am surprised that the engine will not start on 3 cylinders, I had hoped if that happened it would encourage the 4th. I have the pump etc. soaking in a diesel cleaning solution at the moment, filled the fuel filter and pumped it through.

I have just removed all 4 injector pipes and the pump is squirting small jets from 3 of the 4 pump outlets.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

[macnorton]

Could you connect an injector out of the engine? as there may be flow but is the pressure enough to spray fuel.

With one outlet not pumping at all I would suspect the pump has a fault and would have it checked, if you remove the complete filter and water pump it looks as it may come out the back, worst case you could tip the engine with a block and tackle to get it out?

Do you have to top up the pumps lubrication oil reservoir very often? is the oil dirty? both are tell-tales that the pump has wear.

 

[david_bagshaw]

Pump will definitely come off if needed, afterall that is why the coupling is there.

1 remove the 2 bolts keeping the cover marked simms, remove turnbuckle nut and and look at the plungers going up and down on to the cam.

If you are very lucky the non deliverer will be stuck at the top of its delivery stroke and a gentle working down will get all going again..

only work down as levering up can damage it. Also check the rack appears to be working. google simms injection pump for pics of what to expect to see inside.

otherwise remove pump and take to agri type diesel specialist.

This video might be useful, although not your exact model the principles are the same.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hnXd_v4ddk

 

[Floating Preferably]

I had engines with similar pumps at one time and had 5 out of 6 squirting. Remove the pump side plate, which enables you to see what is going on. A camshaft, that you cant see, pushes on plungers that you can see, and a spring sits on each plunger. Possible causes of failure could be a plunger has siezed in the up position, maybe because it has been left standing, or a spring could be broken. If springs are ok, blast the offending plunger with penetrating oil, and LIGHTLY tap it back down. One it starts moving it should free off quickly and soon be squirting again. If the spring is broken, it will probably have to be sorted by your local pump shop.
Good luck.

 

[Chris/G]

Parsons Pike

I had engines with similar pumps at one time and had 5 out of 6 squirting. Remove the pump side plate, which enables you to see what is going on. A camshaft, that you cant see, pushes on plungers that you can see, and a spring sits on each plunger. Possible causes of failure could be a plunger has siezed in the up position, maybe because it has been left standing, or a spring could be broken. If springs are ok, blast the offending plunger with penetrating oil, and LIGHTLY tap it back down. One it starts moving it should free off quickly and soon be squirting again. If the spring is broken, it will probably have to be sorted by your local pump shop.
Good luck.

Well thanks for all the info and help. I am loath to attempt removal of the pump but will try moving the pump cover and see what is happening in there. I am not a diesel fitter and what I know is self taught, this engine has been magnificent for many years and I believe the problem is because it has been rarely started for a couple of years and has probably got 'gunged' up. Lots of WD40 might free it up. I will try all recommendations and report back in a few days.
I repeat many thanks for taking the time to assist. Chris/G

 

[Chris/G]

Parsons Pike Running like a sewing machine.

Well I thank you all for the help and information. Today with your help I have opened the bubbly in celebration.

I really did not know where to start so I removed the plate from the side of the pump and it was horrible, bits, rust, and goodness knows what else. WD40 came into its own and I cleaned and removed the 'crud' torch and mirror at the ready checked what was going on and found very little movement anywhere. Lots more WD40 with capable assistant moving levers and things until movement was detected, this process was continued for some time.
I then thought I would remove the rocker cover to expose the injectors, that is a laugh, it has not been removed for so long it is welded to the head and would not move.
I then considered removing the pump and realised there would be engine timing issues, at that point sat and considered my options lol.
'The boss' bless her said why don't you just turn the engine over and see if it will start. Laugh!!! well that is just what I did and the little beauty started and purred like a baby. I could have cried, left it running for an hour or so and all is good.

So I now have a boat that will move if required, thanks in the main to you guys, I am grateful and I hope you all feel happy for me.

Many, many thanks Chris G

 

[Floating Preferably]

Well I thank you all for the help and information. Today with your help I have opened the bubbly in celebration.

I really did not know where to start so I removed the plate from the side of the pump and it was horrible, bits, rust, and goodness knows what else. WD40 came into its own and I cleaned and removed the 'crud' torch and mirror at the ready checked what was going on and found very little movement anywhere. Lots more WD40 with capable assistant moving levers and things until movement was detected, this process was continued for some time.
I then thought I would remove the rocker cover to expose the injectors, that is a laugh, it has not been removed for so long it is welded to the head and would not move.
I then considered removing the pump and realised there would be engine timing issues, at that point sat and considered my options lol.
'The boss' bless her said why don't you just turn the engine over and see if it will start. Laugh!!! well that is just what I did and the little beauty started and purred like a baby. I could have cried, left it running for an hour or so and all is good.

So I now have a boat that will move if required, thanks in the main to you guys, I am grateful and I hope you all feel happy for me.

Many, many thanks Chris G

Well done Chris G. You have saved yourself maybe £200, maybe more, and now you at least have a good idea of what you should expect to find if you take the side panel off another Simms pump. That is what our Forum is for. :encouragement:

 

[david_bagshaw]

great news, dont forget this pump is lubricated by its own little sump and splash from the rotating parts.

there is a level plug which you remove and fill from another till it dribbles out the level plug. they are shown on the pictures mentioned earlier.

 

[Mermaid-Jon]

I know I'm a bit late coming in on this one, but I have a copy of the original Ford service manual for the 4D (592E) and 6D (590E) engines. PM me if you would like a copy and I can send it over if it would be of any assistance.
Best regards
Jon

 

[Chris/G]

Thanks Jon
I thought my problems were over but put a new fuel filter in the bowl and started the engine which ran fine until the diesel in the filter bowl ran out then it stopped. I am unable to get fuel up past the lift pump to the bowl and then onto the 'simms' pump. I even put vacuum pump topside of lift pump and could not raise the fuel past it.
Faulty lift pump or maybe blocked with dirt?
I gave up in disgust, plus lying around in a small space in the heat we have had recently was a non starter. I am going to have another go tomorrow by checking the condition of the fuel in the tank and removing and checking the lift pump. My age and working in a very confined space is not my idea of fun especially when all the fixings have been in place since Adam was a lad.
Jon if you can easily send me over some information on the lift pump I would be grateful and also information relating to lubricant in the injector pump, which si new to me and probably many others out there.
Thanks and best regards Chris.

 

[Mermaid-Jon]

Chris,

Just PM'd you. If you let me have your E-Mail address I'll send over the fuel system section of the manual.

Thanks
Jon

 

[Chris/G]

The high's and low's of working with a marine diesel that has been neglected over the years in maintenance, my fault entirely.
Today I have with difficulty removed the lift pump which is severely 'gunged' to the extent most of the moving parts did'nt. This has now been cleaned and is ready to go back tomorrow.
I now have a lift pump that lifts the fuel, injectors that work and an injector pump which works. The only grey area now before cranking her over is maybe dirty or contaminated fuel, do I drain everything in the tank at least 10 gallons and replace with new fuel or risk running it?. I have pumped a couple of pints from the very bottom of the tank through the breather and although not brilliant has no waxing or significant bits of rubbish. I hate throwing fuel away.
Advice please. Thanks Chris

 

[jerrytug]

You don't need to throw it away! Get it out of the tank in to jerrycans. Clean all the gunge out of the tank, improvise with rags on sticks or whatever, but clean it you must, shiney on the inside is best.
Clean out the pipes by blowing through, replace the filter (s) and their rubber O rings, all of them, be gentle.
Pour the diesel back in to the tank through a gauze, pair of tights, something to remove the big bits, the filter will take care of the rest.
Everything needs to be muck-free in the fuel system, then it will be reliable, you are lucky your pump is ok.

Do the engine oil, gearbox oil, and coolant, it's worth it. Once done, just check the levels now and again

I used to have a 4D in my old lifeboat, brilliant motors, you can get all the bits from tractor boys, look on classic tractor forums on the net.
All the best Jerry

 

[Chris/G]

Thanks Jerry
I suppose after all the rest of the work might as well finish the job properly. At least the fuel tank has a great big inspection panel about 30cm diameter so almost big enough to climb into although I will resist the temptation. I should be able to clean it well.
Thanks again Chris

 

[TQA]

Well I thank you all for the help and information. Today with your help I have opened the bubbly in celebration.

I really did not know where to start so I removed the plate from the side of the pump and it was horrible, bits, rust, and goodness knows what else. WD40 came into its own and I cleaned and removed the 'crud' torch and mirror at the ready checked what was going on and found very little movement anywhere. Lots more WD40 with capable assistant moving levers and things until movement was detected, this process was continued for some time.
I then thought I would remove the rocker cover to expose the injectors, that is a laugh, it has not been removed for so long it is welded to the head and would not move.
I then considered removing the pump and realised there would be engine timing issues, at that point sat and considered my options lol.
'The boss' bless her said why don't you just turn the engine over and see if it will start. Laugh!!! well that is just what I did and the little beauty started and purred like a baby. I could have cried, left it running for an hour or so and all is good.

So I now have a boat that will move if required, thanks in the main to you guys, I am grateful and I hope you all feel happy for me.

Many, many thanks Chris G

First the GOOD NEWS; it runs and believe me after seeing crud in an injector pump running is rare.

Now the BAD NEWS; BITS AND RUST INSIDE AN INJECTOR PUMP IS REALLY BAD, that pump has to come off and get overhauled by specialist. If you do not do this it will most likely seize up during the next period of inactivity.

Also you must find where the water came from that caused the corrosion. It is almost certain that you have water in your diesel tank and it might be worth getting it totally drained and the fuel checked. If you do not have one already fit a water separator [trap] in the line and CHECK IT OFTEN.

PS prior to being a Monkey patching programmer I was a spanner monkey often working on diesels and we had our own in house injection room with all the kit.