Paper Charts/electronic Charts

C

ctelfer38

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www.classic-cruising.com
A remark on another thread about laptops prompts me to wonder how diligently paper charts are being kept up to date and used. The standard view ( to which I subscribe) is that all of our electronic aids are but an aid to our navigation in support of paper charts and not a replacement; but is there 'mission creep' out there with the electronics steadily taking over? Should we be concerned that we might be seeing a trend where chartwork itself becomes as rarely used as the sextant? /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif:
 
I expect we are,I also think that at the current pace of advancement in electronics it wont be too long in comming either
 
When writing a letter, would you do it on a computer AND handwrite it at the same time?

I keep paper charts handy but don't feel any need to duplicate the electronic plot manuallly on paper. Fine, if PC dies (as they do) I will switch to paper. But, in the meantime I don't see the need to duplicate/ replicate the track manually.

For pilotage one needs to have a good "idea" where one is & location of nearest hazards. No need to have an exact location at all times is there?
 
[ QUOTE ]
For pilotage one needs to have a good "idea" where one is & location of nearest hazards. No need to have an exact location at all times is there?

[/ QUOTE ]I seldom disagree with your posts - maybe we are using different terminology? In a pilotage situation you need to know exactly where you are at all times.
 
"No need to have an exact location at all times is there?"

No not up until the time the laptop fails /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

then you join the where the heck are we tribe
 
I had this Converstion recently with a very experienced Sailor type.
I like doing the paper stuff.
I am hopelous with puter / plotty things.
He said "When did you last use a Sextant, double the angle on the bow, do a running fix?"
This Chappie is no mug.
Is a very experienced guy in things Nautical.
Sails a trad boat, is fixing a trad Mobo too.

Looks like paper is doomed.
I do update the Charts of my area.
When I think about it though, it is a bit pointless.
Been knockin about the Menai Straits, Anglesey and bits of the Irish sea for 30 years ish.
You guys are the same.
You will know your Local patch so well.
You could probably 'smell' your way home, ish!

Some areas you and I are in have estuarys , harbours etc with Bars that change regularly.
It's usually the Local Harbour trust or similar that keep the bouys on the Stations required and print off 'Chartlets' for us.
The Paper or Leccy debate has been done to Death on here before.
So not wanting to go there again.
I think the Trend you are referring to is real.
20/30 even 50 years from now paper nav will be gone.
Should we concerned You ask.
Naw not really.
Buy the time the Sextant is finally dead and buried.
So will We /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
For pilotage one needs to have a good "idea" where one is & location of nearest hazards. No need to have an exact location at all times is there?

[/ QUOTE ]I seldom disagree with your posts - maybe we are using different terminology? In a pilotage situation you need to know exactly where you are at all times.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you for the kind words. Perhaps I should explain a little more. I remember an excellent yarn (probably apocrophyl) where a barge skipper & a naval officer are asked to indicate their position on a chart. After taking bearings & laying them off, he marks a fine cross on the chart. The barge skipper simply tosses his hat on the chart.

As Kwaka points out, I generally sail in well known waters. I am often singlehanded or carrying family "passengers". I know where I am within a cloth cap on a large scale chart. That is all I need to know. If dangers are nearby I use transits or eyeballed bearings with a folded paper chart or trusted pilot chartlet to hand and echo-sounder on. I do not do detailed "classroom plotting" unless I have a crewmember available to do it.

A lot depends on the consequences of failure. I am in shallow water lots of sand banks, mostly (but not always) sheltered. If I hit a sandbank I can generally turn & sail off it, if not I get a chance to scrub the bottom as I sail a bilge keeler.

So while my chart plotter can show exactly where I was at the last fix, the sandbanks may well have moved in the several years (or hundred years) since the last survey. So no, I don't think anyone EVER can claim to know EXACTLY where they are while sailing! /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Cloth cap accuracy instantly works well for me, and the PC Plotter is a fun gadget which will hopefully continue to reassure me that my cap is over the right section of the chart. Plus it keeps track info to help me find tricky channels next time I try.
 
I still disagree with you. What you are saying is when sailing in waters you know very well that you don't need a chart or a plotter to tell you where you are. True, if the viz is adequate, we'd all agree with that.

But to say, as a general statement, that you don't need to know exactly where you are in pilotage conditions is a contradiction of terms. You don't necessarily have your position plotted but you certainly know where you are, I hope!

I am not a stickler for procedure for the sake of procedure but when in a pilotage situation in unfamiliar waters, at night, in poor viz, or where the channel is complicated and currents run fast, I sketch out a pilotage plan and both of us (Mrs L seldom gets pressed into service at sea but she does always for pilotage duty) check the pilotage from chart - radar - plotter - HBC - buoys - markers - transits - leading lights/markers - depths until we are in clear open waters again or in close quarters. Carried out properly, it is a very heavy workload with constant communication between the watchkeepers. I don't have a yachtmaster or any formal qualifications other than an ICC and developed this technique for myself - but presumably that's how they teach it, I cannot see how else you can do it safely?

You only need to have a couple of incorrect details to get seriously concerned - missing buoy, wrong depth trend, wrong HBC bearing. Yes, even with a plotter and radar, I do keep a HBC check going in pilotage conditions because those electrics will fail you when you need them most - as happened to me leaving Ramsgate in thick fog when relying on the radar and GPS.
 
I agree....much more important to know where you're not, rather than to know (or think you know), exactly where you are.

There's nothing wrong with a cautiously managed cloth cap sized area of uncertainty. It's kept many generations of professional seamen safe and is still very appropriate today.
 
Hmmm. Interesting debate. As a Marine Pilot let me give you my take and will quote an old sage at my nautical college when I first set out on my seagoing career. 'Navigation is the art of knowing where you are not - pilotage is the art of knowing where you are!
 
I love the navigation part of sailing and mostly do all my navigation using hand bearing compass plotter and pencil. Running fix, taking bearings 'is that the church steeple, laying off tides (Drives Mrs Cotillion mad, "Will you sit down! You're up and down like a yoyo"). To me this is a massive part of a day at sea.

The alternative of sitting down with an electronic gadget for half hour and keying the route into the GPS which will talk to the autohelm to take me to where I want to be, whilst bobbing up and down for six hours, would reduce even me to the cry of, "Are we there yet! Are we there yet! Are we there yet!"

In truth, I do both and would consider my GPS to be the second most important bit of kit on board (Maybe I would put the kettle in front but definately not the echo sounder). It's nice to just be able to look at a screen when the going gets tough to know exactly where you are in the world. It also keeps a check on me in case I've been a prat. And of course vice-versa.

Just my perception of a days sailing. If you love your gadgets then be my guest.

Kim
 
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as happened to me leaving Ramsgate in thick fog when relying on the radar and GPS.

[/ QUOTE ]

Slight drift but did you leave Ramsgate in fog or did it descend after, and at what point after, your departure?
 
I'm in Cotillion's club but more positive... the kettle is definitely number one, not maybe. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Is it because I'm a wrinkly or does anyone else have trouble with the electronic gadjetry, the jargon I mean? I stick to paper charts because I can understand them and even I can sharpen a pencil. Got a GPS though..wassa waypoint? /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 
Welcome to the "wrinkly club"!.......GPS is great, but I would never use it as primary means of navigation, only there to confirm that the few brain cells I still have, are functioning reasobly well!...................erm.............. when I remember to switch it on that is! /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif
 
I feel better now you've said that, Chrusty 1
Gps I agree, I once had a sextant position off Lisbon that put me in the Black Forest!!!
Good 'ol Garmin..thank you. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
Some years ago, I got an invitation to accompany a friend from work, whose friend (someone I did not know) had bought a new mobo, on it's maiden voyage to the Channel Islands.

On the way home, an electrical fault caused the whole bridge instrumentation to fail. Viz was not good and, as "ballast" I'd not been at all concerned with navigation so far, so I was somewhat concerned to note that....

a) there was no narrative log, so we didn't know where we were, not just now, but at any time since we had left Alderney. We didn't even agree WHEN we'd left Alderney, or how fast we'd been going, never mind what course we'd been following (Curse autopilots and waypoints).

b) We had no "paper charts on board (or rather the skipper/owner did not know that he had them or indeed where they were).

c) That his idea of slowing down was to proceed at half throttle (still on the plane).

We had words....

Reason(?) prevailed and the owner retired in a huff to the saloon and the drinks cabinet.

Proceeding due south at slow speed (thanks to the magnetic bridge compass), a search of the boat found, in the "locked" chart table a pristine chart Folio.

Three hours later, we picked up a ladfall, which proved to be Old Harry Rocks (although to my eternal shame, I did not recognise it until we were much closer).

Gimme paper over electrons every time!
 
[ QUOTE ]
I feel better now you've said that, Chrusty 1
Gps I agree, I once had a sextant position off Lisbon that put me in the Black Forest!!!
Good 'ol Garmin..thank you. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh!.............what's wrong with that?





The Gateau's nice!............Hunph! no pleasing some people is there? /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
There is a 3rd way, the Yeoman plotter. In a few seconds you can plot your position permanently on a chart and continue on your way. If the electronics fails you always have that last marked position to start from.
It is also very useful in sending waypoints back to the GPS. If the primary GPS set fails, a battery powered hand held serves as back up with the necessary connections into the system. I use my old Garmin GPS48 and to use it at the chart table I can disconnect the aerial lead from the main set, a GPS 152, and connect it up. I would never sail without paper charts, the Yeoman seems a good compromise.
They come up on Ebay regularly, buying second hand be wary though and check the plotter resolution which should be better than 2mm. 4 years ago the resolution on my second hand Yeoman Sport became very inaccurate after rough and damp use in the cockpit. It cost me £135 at Tinley Electronics for the repair !
 
Absolutely agree, to me there is nothing quite as comforting as a yeoman sport with a row of plots across it, each with a time, speed and course. Yes we use GPS and what Raymarine call a plotter but if I want to know where we are I look around then look at the yeoman. This gadget keeps my area of uncertainty small if the sparks take an early bath – and they have – I have worked in and around the IT industry for 28 years it makes my living now but I wont rely on it without a very robust backup close at hand and on a yacht there is only one “system” that will do its paper charts and a compass.
 
I agree absolutely!.....worrying though isn't it, that so many are happy to go to sea without paper charts, and worse, consider it the way forward............... /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

I am a bit intrigued about this Yoeman jobbie though, I have given it a cursory look on my way through various web sites, but to be honest, I haven't a clue how it works, or how easy it is to use? Do you need special charts for it, or does it work with any standard chart? Imray for instance?

I would really appreciate some input on this one, sounds like a very good compromise to me? Before you young whippersnappers go all of a giggle, I admit it, I am a bit of a dinosaur by nature, like most people, I have used what I know and what I feel comfortable with, though the Lowrance chart plotter I have is I think very impressive, but I do keep looking at the thing sideways...............I still find it a bit spooky /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
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