Pantaenius Insurance

[michael_w]

I’m reviewing Sestina’s insurance and have made a discovery about the Pantaenius policy I would like to share.

In March, we broke a mooring in the Bahamas and ended up on the beach. Whilst being towed off, one of our spreaders was broken by the towline. Luckily the only other damage was to the bottom of the keel. We limped to Florida to have her fixed. In the course of the claim, Pantaenius made a 30% deduction because the spreader was over 10 years old “new for old deduction”.

Recently, I have discovered that this deductable applies for everything in the case of a “Partial Loss” as Sestina is over 10 years old. A back of an envelope calculation, should Sestina’s mast fall down is frightening. The costs of replacement approximate 12.5% of her total insured value. A very large sum to have uninsured all the time.

Mike

 

[Cardo]

I'm also with Pantaenius. However, isn't this a fairly standard clause? I believe it's called "betterment".

 

[sailorman]

I'm also with Pantaenius. However, isn't this a fairly standard clause? I believe it's called "betterment".

Betterment is when better than before. a spreader is a spreader

 

[Cardo]

Betterment is when better than before. a spreader is a spreader

Was the old spreader replaced with a new spreader?

 

[sailorman]

Was the old spreader replaced with a new spreader?

yes, but it still done the same job as the "accidentally" damaged one, no better or no worse.
the new one did not "improve" the boat so not betterment just a deduction for over 10 yrs old

 

[Gerry]

Yup, many boaters found that little doozy out after Hurricane Ivan. I reviewed my policy then as it was news to me too....and left Pantaneuis.

 

[[70521]]

Yup, many boaters found that little doozy out after Hurricane Ivan. I reviewed my policy then as it was news to me too....and left Pantaneuis.

Thanks, I'll strike them off my list of people to get a quote from next year.

 

[Cardo]

Do other companies not have this condition in their terms?

 

[sailorman]

Do other companies not have this condition in their terms?

My Insurer

http://www.yyachtinsurance.com/OurPolicywording.cfm

 

[Tranona]

The AXA policy through Bishop Skinner limits betterment to Sails, Protective covers, Running rigging, Outboard motors, Batteries and Personal belongings.

So anything else, if covered, which mast and spreaders would be, is replaced with new and no reduction in cost of claim.

Think this is more common as I have seen it in other policies when I have got alternate quotes.

 

[awol]

As always - read the policy before you pay! YYachtInsurance seem to have a sobriety clause and restrictions on single-handed sailing that Pants don't have.

It is possible that there is a policy out there that fits perfectly but as yet I haven't found it. You pays your money and takes your choice!

 

[sailorman]

As always - read the policy before you pay! YYachtInsurance seem to have a sobriety clause and restrictions on single-handed sailing that Pants don't have.

It is possible that there is a policy out there that fits perfectly but as yet I haven't found it. You pays your money and takes your choice!

my Y Ins wording, covered s/h up to 18 hrs

2.3 The Vessel is covered for single-handed sailing by the Insured named in
the Certificate of Insurance, but for a passage which might last 18 hours or
more, the Vessel is only covered for loss, damage, liability or expense while
Y YACHT INSURANCE POLICY (FOR OYSTER YACHTS ) WORDING (CONT)
9
Y YACHT INSURANCE POLICY (FOR OYSTER YACHTS ) WORDING (CONT)
underway, provided at least two people are on-board throughout and each
person is qualified or has experience appropriate for them to take charge of
the Vessel unless otherwise stated in the Certificate of Insurance

 

[robp]

There's a bob or two here for someone who has the time to draw up a comparison spreadsheet, with salient features/clauses v premium. YM project?

 

[macd]

Do other companies not have this condition in their terms?

Stipulations about "betterment" are of course commonplace (but not universal) throughout the insurance industry. The issue here seems to be more of what constitutes betterment, to which Pantsanus have applied an arbitrary age figure -- on, it seems, everything on the boat.

So you have a total loss of your nine year-old boat, and get a new one with the pay-out. That isn't betterment? On the other hand a 40 year-old lead keel is probably as good in every way as one you might buy tomorrow.

 

[Tranona]

There's a bob or two here for someone who has the time to draw up a comparison spreadsheet, with salient features/clauses v premium. YM project?

Think you would find it frustrating. On the one hand, from the quotes I have got, there is very little difference in the policies offered by the mainstream insurers. Every couple of years I get comparative quotes and most come out with 10% of each other with very similar standard clauses. However that is only for the same boat in the same location and same cruising area.

Once you start changing those variables, prices and cover change - and then even more change if you want specific cover. For example my policy has single handed, daylight hours only and conditional on installation of an autopilot. Suits me, but no doubt could be changed if asked. In the same vein some insurers are not happy with certain types of mooring or impose conditions for particular passages such as across Biscay.

So, for an individual best to get quotes, compare what is on offer, establish your own benchmark and go with the company that offers the best deal for you. Unfortunately you also have to make the assumption they will all be the same in the event of a claim, but this is difficult to know in advance.

 

[Tranona]

So you have a total loss of your nine year-old boat, and get a new one with the pay-out. That isn't betterment?

But that doesn't happen because total loss payout is limited by the agreed value which in theory will only put you back where you were - that is in a position to buy a comparable 9 year old replacement.

 

[robp]

Think you would find it frustrating.

Yes I know what you're saying but two or three samples, common to many of our requirements would tell which way the individual companies are headed. E.g. South Coast/East Coast Marina, 30', 36', 40'. Single handed, cruising area etc.

My sailing time always seems to be "stolen". (From work, family or other commitments). It's all too easy to just accept the premium year on year and that is what I have done! Maybe lazyness but I found no time to list all my requirements and then go to market each year. Even then I probably would miss something I need/would like cover for.

An issue certainly in automotive, is that renewal quotes all too often assume the insured isn't checking and can happily go on paying more and more - and maybe suffer clauses inserted, or increased first loss that others have not.

 

[macd]

Originally Posted by macd:
So you have a total loss of your nine year-old boat, and get a new one with the pay-out. That isn't betterment?

But that doesn't happen because total loss payout is limited by the agreed value which in theory will only put you back where you were - that is in a position to buy a comparable 9 year old replacement.

Yes, a carelessly-chosen example. But if we substitute 'rig' for 'boat', then it's obvious that betterment is commonplace. The OP's issue seems to be the arbitrary and universal definition of betterment in his policy.

As for shopping around...good idea, of course. But there are good reasons to stay with one insurer. Six years ago my insurance for Biscay carried the caveat of no passage over 24 hours or two crew (plus myself). Four years later no such conditions applied, from which I can only deduce that the interveming claim-free years had engendered a measure of confidence.

 

[Tranona]

Yes, I had the same experience with Bluefin. No restrictions for my return passage from the Med. Just advised the experience of crew and state of boat. Small additional premium - around £80. Probably something to do with only 2 small claims (one of them for 1987 storm damage) totalling £1200 in 35 years. Just think of the money I would have saved if I had not bothered with insurance!

 

[michael_w]

It's not just a question of betterment. Imagine you've got all your biggest sails up ie 3 sail reaching, and the whole lot goes over the side, leaving you with the chainplates...

Work out what that lot will cost to replace and then realize you will have to cough up 30% to keep sailing. A surprisingly large sum of money.

If you want a MoBo you'd better get one with a bigger engine.