PanPan on Mon 4th, off Wootten Creek- Thank You

[Seajet]

B*****D thing just lost a long post, aaarghh. Right, start again. As some will know, I helped deliver a Bav 300 from Brighton marina to Shoreham Yacht Club yesterday. During the trip it became obvious that after each big wave, the engine slowed from approx. 2200 rpm right down to tickover for about 3-4 seconds before regaining speed. Don't know why, but it did this at least 30 times. TopDonkey (Ian) asked my opinion as to a course of action if the engine died.I immediately said I would put out a pan-pan and then see if we could hoist a bit of sail (genoa would have been my choice, actually) and head back to Brighton - I really didn't and still don't think we'd have had any other choice. The forum's opinion is sought, please.
Sorry for the hi-jack.

Actually I'd wondered about this when reading your exploits, and I didn't know about the possibly faltering engine !

It would be normal practice to have the main up - probably with 1 reef in this case; it works to stabilise the boat, so may have saved seasickness, and gives Plan B if the engine dies at a critical moment.

It can be carried dead into the wind, motoring ( unless the engine can't handle the drag in very strong winds ) and will give the option of at least pointing say 50 degrees to the wind while one ponders, rather than turn and bear away for the genoa which you may not have space for.

The downsides to this are the drag if really, truly heading directly into wind for more than moments, and chiefly that people will presumably have to go on deck to get it down before entering in this case Shoreham.

On reflection with this crew I'd have just had the main cover off and halliard clipped on ready to hoist and left it at that, using some genoa unrolled for the course parallel to the shore and entering Shoreham.

This is with a southerly wind, as I think you had ?

Also, having the anchor ready to drop at short notice and everyone briefed how to do that is essential.

Fact is, at certain points of that little trip, there were very few options if things went wrong; just like a 100 mile trip, the bits at the harbour entrances are the dodgiest.

 

[BAtoo]

In which case the ILB crew have a lot to answer for, not the OP. From reading the above, the OP didn't request a lifeboat but rather called the CG to allow them to warn ferries. I have done the same in the past, and a PAN PAN is the correct course of action. When we called to warn of our situation an ILB came and towed us despite telling the CG that we were quite happy sailing and that we were under control.
Just because an ILB helped does not mean that a yacht is wasting resources or even that they wanted the help (although probably glad of it). The ILB was in the area and I'm sure they were happy with a bit of practice and therefore offered to help out. In these situations when the lifeboat offers to help it's hard to say no. It's also a good recruiting strategy - I started a direct debit shortly afterwards for an offshore membership
Cheers
Dave

PAN PAN was right call.
If the ILB came out without your request then that's their call.

I too have been helped by the ILB after contacting CG (on 67, not a pan pan) to tell them I had fouled a pick-up buoy in Harwich Harbour and was pinned by the rudder.
(I was the only fully able bodied/experienced person on board which encouraged the call as if things had gone wrong with my efforts to free us things may have become a bit difficult)

Anyway they came, freed us & said no worries as its good to practice & breaks the monotony of waiting a real emergency.

 

[VicS]

I totally agree with the OP, why wait until something gets out of hand to accept assistance. He merely alerted the CG to an imminent situation, and accepted freely given help from those around him. He has then made public his actions which I think show a responsibililty to others with less experience/more bravado. Good for him and Mrs W!

Merely alerting the coastguard to a problem is not questioned.
What is in doubt is whether a well found sailing vessel, in moderate conditions and capable of being sailed away from the entrance to Wooton to a safe anchorage without difficulty should have used used a Pan Pan call to do that.

A couple of other questions .

Why was the OP making the passage to windward against a foul tide, when there is an ample period of fair tide (about 5½ hours) in which to make the 11, or so, mile passage.

Why was the OP so close inshore at Wooton Creek that he was in conflict with ferries in the entrance channel.

 

[Seajet]

VicS,

I suspect what seems glaring to experienced people is 'part of the curve' for people in their second season; it doesn't do any harm, in fact does a lot of good to point out what should have been done though, I agree.

 

[l'escargot]

...Why was the OP so close inshore at Wooton Creek that he was in conflict with ferries in the entrance channel.

Probably trying to keep in close to keep out of the foul tide?

 

[prv]

Also, having the anchor ready to drop at short notice and everyone briefed how to do that is essential.

I have a new resolution to do that when entering confined spaces under power (ie where I might drift ashore in seconds with no time to get any sail up). But I can only do it in those confined, ie sheltered, places - not all the time. To leave the anchor unlashed on the foredeck anywhere with any waves, or where I might be heeling under sail, would be foolish.

Pete

 

[Seajet]

To leave the anchor unlashed on the foredeck anywhere with any waves, or where I might be heeling under sail, would be foolish.

Ah, well some of us have anchor wells in the front ! Elastic sail tie /s to mooring cleats or pulpit for 'nearly ready' ?

 

[mickywillis]

Merely alerting the coastguard to a problem is not questioned.
What is in doubt is whether a well found sailing vessel, in moderate conditions and capable of being sailed away from the entrance to Wooton to a safe anchorage without difficulty should have used used a Pan Pan call to do that.

A couple of other questions .

Why was the OP making the passage to windward against a foul tide, when there is an ample period of fair tide (about 5½ hours) in which to make the 11, or so, mile passage.

Why was the OP so close inshore at Wooton Creek that he was in conflict with ferries in the entrance channel.

VicS, you have obviously never sailed a Westerly Pageant upwind in light winds then!!
We left Newtown Creek 3 1/2 hrs before HW (we were moored up the creek and didn't have enough water to come off the anchor) 3 1/2 hrs should have been plenty of time to get from Newtown to Ryde. As the winds were so light, the day was fine and sunny and we felt we had plenty of time to get to Ryde, we decided to sail and enjoy the experience
(we were supposed to be on holiday after all) All was going well until we came around the entrance to Cowes, the winds became fluky and the tides tossed us about a fair bit. It took us about 2 hrs to get from Newtown to Cowes, so gives you an idea how slowly our boat goes to wind (even with tides) Once we got passed Cowes, the winds settled and we decided to sail some more. Once past Osbourne Bay we began to realise that the tide was going to turn against us, so decided to motorsail towards Ryde. After about 1/2 hr we then hit the problems I posted about. Wind speed increased from the direction we wished to travel towards and then the tide turned, causing us to to be pushed back towards Wootten.
Hence being closer to Wootten Creek (appx 1 Nm out), which is not too far from where the ferries are known to do a 180 degree turn to enter/leave Fishbourne Terminal.
I appreciate all opinions given regarding the decision to make the Pan Pan call (I even checked what situations the PanPan call is applicable to in the RYA VHF/Yachtmaster books I have onboard) I felt it the correct call to make to the CG, assistance was offered and we gratefully accepted.
If we had not been offered assistance, my intention was to take down sails, drift back and then anchor out of harms way, attempting to make repairs whilst the tide ebbed away. The only slight issue with this would have been waiting for the tide to turn into a favourable direction and allowing for sufficient water to fill Ryde harbour, would have meant a passage in the dark, something I have yet to undertake ( and Yes, I know its only a short distance, but without an engine if I couldn't have effected repairs, I WOULD NOT have wanted to do that, let alone Mrs W) Ryde was the harbour of choice as I knew I could travel from there to anywhere on the Island for spares/repairs/assistance as required (my Cousin lives on the Island and could have offered help/assistance)
Out of interest, we did manage to get the motor running again before the Ryde Rescue turned up, but it was inconsistent and would only rev to about 1500RPM, requiring constant throttle fettling. Ryde Rescue ran with us for about 15 mins whilst the motor ran, but they insisted in towing us into Ryde for safety reasons, which I fully appreciate and understand.
Remember, we all have to start our sailing experiences somewhere. If anyone is unlucky to experience an issue in their first few years of sailing, its unfortunate, but a good way of gaining knowledge in what to do in the future. Some people NEVER have any difficulties in their hobbies/activities, they are either very lucky it hasn't happened to them or very UNLUCKY in that they will never get to understand what happens in a minor/major crisis issue.
If this problem had escalated and not been dealt with in what I felt was a safe and secure method, do you think my wife would want to come out on Zara ever again? Better to write about experiences here than becme written about on a MAIB investigation surely?

 

[Twister_Ken]

Micky,

I'm with you all the way on that.

Now, go out and sail some more!

TK

 

[mickywillis]

Conochair

Lets forget about whether a tow was offered and accepted, that's not really the issue

The issue as far as I am concerned is about the PAN PAN urgency call being made when it simply wasn't an urgency and the lack of self reliance that prompted that decision! The official RYA VHF Radio handbook definition is that a PAN PAN indicates that the vessel or crew have a serious problem but are not in a distress situation - ie not in grave and imminent danger.

Examples include:-
-a boat taking on water
-an engine failure with no other means of propulsion but some distance from a lee shore
- injury to crew who needs treatment but whose life is not threatened

All the OP had to do was turn round sail down wind and the problem was solved and that is not an urgency in anyone's book.

Not being able to get home for tea is not an urgency.

Where in my post did I mention not being able to get home for tea? Not the issue, I feel this is a rather deregatory comment to make. I made the posting as a "Thank You" to those involved and also as an informative posting, prompting discussion, not attracting off the cuff, uneccesary comments.

FYI,
From the Wikepedia website:
Nautical examples of the correct use of a "pan-pan" call from a boat or ship may include the following cases, provided the skipper or master remains confident that they can handle the situation and that there is no current danger to the life of any person or to the safety of the vessel itself.

Once the urgent situation which led to the Pan Pan broadcast has been resolved or contended with, conventional practice is for the station that initiated the Pan Pan call to make a follow-up broadcast to All Stations, informing them that the urgent situation no longer exists.

A call that originates as a "pan-pan" signal might be followed by a Mayday distress call if the situation deteriorates to the point of "grave and imminent danger", thus warranting immediate action (intervention, assistance, response) on the part of listeners in accordance with standard operating practices for distress signaling.

Fouled propeller, engine failure or out of fuel
Provided the vessel is now either anchored or under sail and safe from any immediate danger of collision or stranding. The crew may be planning to clear the propeller, refuel from an onboard supply, hoist sail or use some other alternative propulsion. Alternatively, as part of the "pan-pan" call the skipper may request a tow from a suitable vessel, if possible, but without immediate urgency.
Small fire on board - now extinguished
Fire can be very dangerous afloat but if it was small and contained and is now certainly put out without injury to any crew, then a "pan-pan" call is appropriate to warn others that investigations are underway to establish the extent of the damage, clear the smoke from below and hopefully re-establish passage as soon as possible.
Unsure of position
Provided there is no apparent danger of stranding or hitting rocks, a "pan-pan" call on marine VHF radio may allow nearby coast-stations and perhaps other vessels to triangulate the source of the transmissions and provide the skipper with both a fix and perhaps some advice on the best course to steer to reach a safe haven.
Man-overboard recovery
If safely recovering a person overboard, a "pan-pan" call on VHF makes other nearby vessels aware of the situation and ensures that they keep a sharp lookout, avoid coming too close, avoid excessive wake or otherwise interfering. It also alerts them to the fact that the recovery vessel is maneuvering for urgent life-saving and is therefore 'restricted in her ability to maneuver' in accordance with the International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea. If the recovery vessel has lost sight of the person overboard, if the person overboard loses consciousness, if there is a danger of hypothermia or any other grave risk to life, then a mayday call is more appropriate so that other nearby vessels may offer help with the search and recovery, rather than keeping clear.
Overdue Vessel
The US or Canadian Coast Guard (and likely similar maritime safety agencies in other countries) issue "urgent marine information broadcasts" concerning vessels that have been reported overdue, as part of the process of a 'communications search' or 'pre-com' phase of uncertain, possible distress, as determined under the authority of a maritime rescue co-ordination centre or joint maritime-aeronautical rescue co-ordination centre. The message content, a description of the vessel under the apprehension of being missing, its last known position and the date last heard from, and the supposed route or passage plan of the vessel, is preceded by the prowords Pan Pan and will be addressed to "all stations". Any stations having information concerning the whereabouts of the named vessel are asked to communicate with and report same to the nearest coast guard station.
Imminent Collision Alert
It may be warranted to urgently attempt to make radio contact with an approaching vessel that is running into danger or approaching a dangerous close quarters situation and therefore at risk of colliding with one's own vessel, and warning the operator to keep clear. This would be a 'bridge-to-bridge' communication and could be done in combination with sounding the "your intentions are unclear or not understood" sound signal, the 5 prolonged horn or whistle blasts, the 'danger signal'. A prolong blast is 5 seconds long, compared to a short blast of 1 second duration under the COLREG. An urgent warning could also be given over the radio, for example, if the called vessel appears to be unaware that she is potentially or at risk of endangering a person in a small boat or a person swimming, such as running them down. A loud hailer could also be used along with a radio warning.
Medical assistance
A "pan-pan medico" call is appropriate if someone becomes injured or in need of medical help at sea. If the vessel is heading to shore and wants to be met by an ambulance crew, the local Coast Guard station can arrange this. A doctor or other trained medical advisor may also be available on the radio, perhaps by patching through via telephone from ashore or from a nearby vessel. Again, if there is immediate risk to life, then a Mayday call is more appropriate. "Pan-pan medico" is no longer in official use.[4]
Marine Rescue Organisations, such as Coastal Patrol, Coast Guard & Search and Rescue listen on marine radio frequencies for all distress calls including "pan-pan". These organisations can coordinate or assist and can relay such calls to other stations that may be better able to do so.

 

[prv]

Elastic sail tie /s to mooring cleats or pulpit for 'nearly ready' ?

Ain't got a pulpit. And while I could fasten the anchor to a mooring cleat, anywhere other than in its chocks it's going to be slithering around marring the foredeck.

When I get into a river etc and have stowed the mainsail, I now nip up and undo the lashings on the chocks in case I should need to heave it over in a hurry. Having the back end of one's gearbox fall off brings the possibility of engine failure to the front of one's mind

Pete

 

[Madhatter]

Micky,

I'm with you all the way on that.

Now, go out and sail some more!

TK

DITTO
Well done on the right decision

 

[Rigger Mortice]

Micky,

From your initial postings and your recent responses to some of the replies it's obvious that you have learnt more in just two seasons than some learn of a much greater period of time.
I'm only sorry that some of the replies appear to be both critical and judgemental. They probably aren't meant that way; it's just how things come across with the written word on this forum. Nevertheleaa it's a pity particularly if it dissaudes people from posting about their experiences as you have done.
These things are always a judgement call and the main thing is that you got sorted out and the your other half is OK about it all. Others may have handled it differently but there was nothing, absolutely nothing, wrong with what you did.

Enjoy your season!

 

[taz]

Purely from an outsiders point of view(valid or not) in that I have no experience whatsoever and haven't even got a boat yet(hopefully rectified within two weeks, yippee) I have learn't a lot from this thread.

My observations are as follows

1) That the OP made what he thought was a good call, and in my not so important opinion it seems to be one that was correct in protecting all concerned(without the use of a crystal ball too). The CG obviously thought it serious enough to call the rescue services. The rescue services were happy too, so really all the criticism comes from people with the benefit of hindsight, not from people who were there or who are answering in a professional capacity as a CG or rescue team member on that day.

2) If you have a story to share you must be willing to take some hefty criticism from people who have MUCH more experience than yourself and who seem to forget or dismiss the fact that this is only your second season of sailing.

I am glad that there was a happy ending to what must have seemed an endless nightmare at the time. Well done.

I'll get my coat on the way out.

 

[Modulation]

I had to look it up as well



Sounds like the right call.

Then -


So help wasn't requested but the was a lifeboat in the area who gave them a tow.

Sounds like it all went rather well for everyone. Can't see what the fuss is about.

I agree. The reality is that the ILB wasn't asked for - it just arrived. I've been in a situation when this happened to me and I specifically stated that help wasn't required. Can be tricky though as you feel you're being ungrateful.

 

[mcframe]

Mucking around with diesel in any kind of a seaway is asking for a dose of seasickness, better park up and then sort the problem.

Some random replies to several posts:

I've bled & changed filters passing between the forts, after discovering a half-full fuel tank emptied into the bilges - fixed it, chucked in my 5L reserve jerry can and (verbally) asked Cowes HM to shadow us into Shepards (looked around and checked AIS; started engine on fumes at Cowes fairway).

*First* season out, was trying to haul off Winner Bank under jib alone on the ebb in an F5, spotted Chi HM rib - shouted "Engine dead, If you can tow me to Sparkes, I'll buy my harbour permit for this year - It will save on postage...."

Data point: IIRC, the Royal Victoria YC has a row of moorings off Wooton next to the starting platform - mainly they are used for Squibs and other keelboats, but I was once told that the ones at either end are good for up to 20 tons.

OP did the right thing - better in Ryde Harbour than on the beach opposite the LB station, but I wonder if I'd have had the presence of mind to call CG on 67 with "I'm thinking about broadcasting my own securitie, what do you think?"

With the benefit of a couple of years Solent experience - is it just me, or do the Pompey-Fishbourne ferries seem much nicer to yotties at the IOW end of their trips?
q.v. Ryde hovercraft pilots are as wind-driven as we are and are *always* polite & pass astern.

 

[Tidewaiter2]

We are All only as Good as the Last Time we got it Right!

Micky,

From your initial postings and your recent responses to some of the replies it's obvious that you have learnt more in just two seasons than some learn of a much greater period of time.
I'm only sorry that some of the replies appear to be both critical and judgemental. They probably aren't meant that way; it's just how things come across with the written word on this forum. Nevertheleaa it's a pity particularly if it dissaudes people from posting about their experiences as you have done.
These things are always a judgement call and the main thing is that you got sorted out and the your other half is OK about it all. Others may have handled it differently but there was nothing, absolutely nothing, wrong with what you did.

Enjoy your season!

+1 here,too, see you & Mrs on the water