Pan declared - loss of steering

[[2068]]

As an owner of two D4-260s, this does make me a bit nervous.
Most other systems are redundant. I have separate fuel tanks, battery banks, etc.
But if the hydraulic steering runs out of fluid, that's it, and there's almost nothing I could do to rig up anything else, because there is nothing inside the boat that I could lock the drives onto.

I had one steering ram replaced last Winter, I think I'll have the other one done as well this Winter,.
VP reduced the prices ... they are only a couple of hundred quid or so now.

As a backstop, I'd definitely recommend carrying a couple of litres of ATF fluid onboard, just in case.

 

[Hurricane]

I struggle to understand why later incarnations of drives bypassed this very basic of fall backs to a loss in hydraulics. That there is no system of at least locking the drives readily into a neutral position. Knowing that it would really bother me. I find it an own goal w.r.t. tech advancement and quite frankly unacceptable. For my own part had I not had throttle steering I would have been in some serious trouble indeed. How can people pay a couple hundred K plus plenty more onwards for a boat that does not have redundant systems to at least enable self help? It makes a complete mockery of the ethos behind twin engines.

Well, actually as far as I know, most boats (except stern drive boats) there is a manual rudder override.
In my case you go down into the crews cabin in the stern, remove a wall panel and, there behind the wall, is a big tiller that you can attach to the rudders.
You then sit in the crew cabin (without being able to see out) and steer the boat!!
Sailing boats usually have a similar arrangement but their emergency tiller is connected above decks so that they can see where they are going.

 

[vas]

Well, actually as far as I know, most boats (except stern drive boats) there is a manual rudder override.
In my case you go down into the crews cabin in the stern, remove a wall panel and, there behind the wall, is a big tiller that you can attach to the rudders.
You then sit in the crew cabin (without being able to see out) and steer the boat!!
Sailing boats usually have a similar arrangement but their emergency tiller is connected above decks so that they can see where they are going.

smaller non aft-cabin boats have a covered hole on the aft deck or inside a stern locker, where you fit a tiller and you can see where you're steering but you're no where near the engine controls twin engined/twin rudder this thing is offset and over one of the rudder stocks (doesn't help with engine control though...)

Best thing is to jam the rudders in straight ahead and use your engines.

 

[vas]

further, slow leak is fine on an f/b boat as it first declares itself on the f/b controls, then lower helm and if you really cannot be bothered you'll run out of a/p at the end, so plenty of time to react...

 

[jrudge]

When mine happened the lower helm was still working so I assumed low fluid. It was pumping out so when fly stopped and I went below that didn’t work either !

 

[vas]

When mine happened the lower helm was still working so I assumed low fluid. It was pumping out so when fly stopped and I went below that didn’t work either !

yeah, but yours wasn't a slow leak Jeremy ruptured pipe all out rather quickly.

I also don't know what happens with some old Princesses where on top of hydraulics they also have some bike pump valves where you pressurise the thing (That's what I was told by two friends having such boats) some sort of power assistance?

 

[jrudge]

I asked about this the other day.
Reply from manufacturer. Question was why pressurise as if drops makes no difference.

Due to the fact that the reservoir is not the highest point of the system the pressure ensures that a positive head of fluid is seen at the highest helm.
It is not unusual for pressure to decrease over time, it just depends on whether it is manageable. It could just be an air leak around the top of the reservoir itself, in which case oil won't be lost.
Try to leave a sensible air space above the oil level, say 2-3", which will allow the oil to expand and leave enough air volume that if there was a small leak, the pressure drop would be slower.
You may find that the upper helm becomes a little vague when pressure is missing.
You could try a soapy water test around the top of the reservoir to see if there is a small leak
Best regards
Mike

 

[vas]

ah, makes sense, my fill-in point is the upper helm "pump" (btw, how do you call that thing behind the steering wheel?) so it is the highest point. I do remember the others are using a reservoir at the e/r.
Reminds me to go and check the level!

 

[BruceK]

Well, actually as far as I know, most boats (except stern drive boats) there is a manual rudder override.
In my case you go down into the crews cabin in the stern, remove a wall panel and, there behind the wall, is a big tiller that you can attach to the rudders.
You then sit in the crew cabin (without being able to see out) and steer the boat!!
Sailing boats usually have a similar arrangement but their emergency tiller is connected above decks so that they can see where they are going.

It was stern drives I was referring to. Earlier versions like mine were hydraulic assisted cable driven steering. If a cable breaks hydraulics lock the drives. If hydraulics go you have slow steering capability (as fast as the ram will shift without pump assistance) but the drives will still lock to the cable position allowing throttle only steering. Even those earlier units with full hydraulic steering, because the steering tie bar was internal itis a simple affair just to reach between the engines and place a pipe wrench over the tie bar locking it into position.

 

[stelican]

My boat, single shaft and rudder, has, like a lot of boats, back up steering with a tiller arm. First you turn off the hydraulics completely then open a small cover and place a tiller arm, that’s stored below, in it. The problem is that you need a second crew person to operate the throttle at the he

Well, actually as far as I know, most boats (except stern drive boats) there is a manual rudder override.
In my case you go down into the crews cabin in the stern, remove a wall panel and, there behind the wall, is a big tiller that you can attach to the rudders.
You then sit in the crew cabin (without being able to see out) and steer the boat!!
Sailing boats usually have a similar arrangement but their emergency tiller is connected above decks so that they can see where they are going.

Fairline used to supply similar but the method was to lash the tiller amidships and steer on the engines,If twin engined

 

[jimmy_the_builder]

...
At this stage I alerted St Jean radio station on 16 via a pan of what was going on. Pan acknowledged and then a brief discussion over the phone about options. I didn’t feel the need for assistance at this stage, but wanted the French authorities to be aware of our troubles.

15 mins later the autopilot is just waving around and can’t hold a course. I now call for assistance. Options discussed with the authorities and told to stand by. Life jackets put on. We are dead in the water.
...
Steering is regained. I call back the French authorities and state that I have regained steering and will continue to Nice. No need for assistance, but I will call if the situation changes.

After 30 mins we get to Nice port. I call all stations I spoke to and thank them and let them know I am safe and that Pan is down declared.

Hi S

Well done on all of this. As a point of interest, were your radio calls on 16 in English or French? When I was in SoF I always had a concern in the back of my mind that my French wouldn't be good enough for rt comms in an emergency.

 

[Hurricane]

ah, makes sense, my fill-in point is the upper helm "pump" (btw, how do you call that thing behind the steering wheel?) so it is the highest point. I do remember the others are using a reservoir at the e/r.
Reminds me to go and check the level!

My hydraulic steering only goes as far as the lower helm.
There are no hydraulics on the FB.
The FB helm is "fly by wire" to a control unit in the lazerette.
The hydraulic oil reservoir is in that control unit.
When we took delivery of the boat, I was told that if the hem system fails, the lower helm would still operate using the inbuilt pump within the steering wheel.
Of course, none of all this works if there isn't any hydraulic oil in the system.

 

[mcanderson]

Hi S

Well done on all of this. As a point of interest, were your radio calls on 16 in English or French? When I was in SoF I always had a concern in the back of my mind that my French wouldn't be good enough for rt comms in an emergency.

Jimmy,

I went with English, but French for the numbers as there was some confusion. Ch16 wasn’t the clearest, was pushed to Ch72 for working and then told to call 196 on my phone. That was much better.

 

[Sticky Fingers]

... it has led me to consider what I would do. My boat has Volvo's so-called 'electronic' steering which means that the hydraulics are not at the wheel; that merely sends signals to the box of electrickery that controls the rams. The AP is embedded in this system, there is no separate AP controller AFAIK. The two drives are controlled independently and there is no tie rod.

Fluid reservoir is in the engine bay, reasonably accessible if a bit uncomfortable in a sea, so it could be topped up if leaking. But would manual steering or AP work at all without fluid? I can't see that being likely; there is nothing else there. Can the drives be locked dead ahead? Not seen anything to do that.

Well I looked at this today. VP DPH drives with 'electronic' steering and no tie rod. Turns out I have two completely separate hydraulic systems, one per leg, separate pump, reservoir, pipes. So potentially, some redundancy. I spent some time testing to see if you can drive the boat reliably on one engine and yes that's fine, steers perfectly well both fwd and reverse at marina speeds so would probably suffice as a get-me-home.

 

[BruceK]

5knts is plenty, you'll get to a safe haven no problem, whats more you should be used to yottie speeds and quite comfortable with it.

 

[Portofino]

Well I looked at this today. VP DPH drives with 'electronic' steering and no tie rod. Turns out I have two completely separate hydraulic systems, one per leg, separate pump, reservoir, pipes. So potentially, some redundancy. I spent some time testing to see if you can drive the boat reliably on one engine and yes that's fine, steers perfectly well both fwd and reverse at marina speeds so would probably suffice as a get-me-home.

Are you sure you are not getting in a muddle with your trim ram pumps ?

 

[Sticky Fingers]

Are you sure you are not getting in a muddle with your trim ram pumps ?

oooh maybe. Rats.

 

[BruceK]

oooh maybe. Rats.

You and Roy must be related

 

[Sticky Fingers]

You and Roy must be related

FFS no. Surely.

 

[BruceK]

Grim, innit