Pan declared - loss of steering

[mcanderson]

Good job.

But I'm wondering why the A/P couldn't cope. Could your 'responsiveness' (I think that's what it's called) setting be changed to make it more effective?

The Autopilot runs off the same hydraulic source so once all the liquid have seeped past the seals in the rams the autopilot trued to function but with no fluid it would never work.

Raymarine system.

 

[mcanderson]

Not sure this works with hydraulic steering - if enough fluid is lost, they just flop from one side to the other.

No hydraulic fluid at all I guess so no ability for the steering rams to function.

 

[Sticky Fingers]

This is enlightening. I also agree with the other comments that your Pan call was justified. Interesting to read about what happens when hydraulic fluid is lost in a boat with outdrives, and it has led me to consider what I would do. My boat has Volvo's so-called 'electronic' steering which means that the hydraulics are not at the wheel; that merely sends signals to the box of electrickery that controls the rams. The AP is embedded in this system, there is no separate AP controller AFAIK. The two drives are controlled independently and there is no tie rod.

Fluid reservoir is in the engine bay, reasonably accessible if a bit uncomfortable in a sea, so it could be topped up if leaking. But would manual steering or AP work at all without fluid? I can't see that being likely; there is nothing else there. Can the drives be locked dead ahead? Not seen anything to do that.

If that's wrong I'd be happy to learn more.

 

[jrudge]

I had this this summer. 4 hours form Mallorca to Formentera.

Steering a little odd about 2 miles from destination.

About half a mile nothing

used throttles and stuck down the anchor. Found fault ( it was a temp repair done just after I bought the boat by an engineer as the part spilt. It never got fixed and the pipe spilt. Get pipe out and fix. I have small about of fluid but need a lot of it

hop into rib and ask the next door superyacht. They lent me a bucket of the stuff. Filled up. Took it back with a bottle of wine to say thanks. Lovely Swiss owner.

All fixed.

post the event I did find in the stern locker there is an ahead lock for the rudders so if there is a next time I will lock them as steering with floppy rudders is not great.

on mine autopilot andhelms on same system.

 

[[2068]]

With the non-joystick system, minor fluid loss - you might lose manual steering and the AP will still work as the pump is lower down.
Topping up a minor leak will restore the effectiveness of the steering wheel.

Major fluid leak, you are toast, no steering, no AP unless you can get large quantities of fluid in there somehow.

 

[BruceK]

Not sure this works with hydraulic steering - if enough fluid is lost, they just flop from one side to the other.

There's something to be said for older systems then. I like the fact that I have some sort of redundancy in just about everything I can think of failing at least including complete ignition / electrics loss.

 

[Bouba]

My boat, single shaft and rudder, has, like a lot of boats, back up steering with a tiller arm. First you turn off the hydraulics completely then open a small cover and place a tiller arm, that’s stored below, in it. The problem is that you need a second crew person to operate the throttle at the helm

 

[BruceK]

There's something to be said for older systems then. I like the fact that I have some sort of redundancy in just about everything I can think of failing at least including complete ignition / electrics loss.

For me this is probably just as well ?

 

[mcanderson]

You did well?
Just in case I get into a similar situation (ghastly thought) can you tell us what options were discussed

Hi Bouba,

So we discussed diversion port options and the implications of each. The waves were so all over the place that there were no good options, but there was a easterly trend so we kept heading towards Nice rather then turning to St Laurence or back tracking to Antibes.
Also we went over what we would need to do for a tow. As St Jean signal station was running the pan they had requested assistance for us. A Mangusta 100 showed up just after we got the steering back. A non rescue tow would have resulted in us staying with the boat. A rescue tow would have taken us off I guess.
I also went over the use of flares, the hand held VHF and a worse case what if we have to take to the life raft.
I‘m a military pilot so emergency training and fault finding Are a huge part of my professional background.

 

[Bouba]

I‘m a military pilot so emergency training and fault finding Are a huge part of my professional background.

Impressive !
Thanks, were costs ever mentioned ? Also was the Mangusta just a private yacht that happened to be there and was willing to help ?

 

[mcanderson]

Nope and I didn’t even think about them.
The Mangusta has been in the Lerins close to us and we left before it. We only ever waved to each other. Once I have them a thumbs up they headed off towards Monaco.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

I've had something similar happen 3 times on my Ferrettis, twice due to loss of hydraulic fluid as a result of a failed hose and once due to a steering rod literally snapping. Unfortunately the steering mechanism on a Ferretti is hidden away at the back of the boat underneath the bathing platform which means getting the dinghy off to inspect the mechanism or to use the emergency tiller which is just too risky in any kind of sea

I dont know what its like on a sterndrive boat but on a twin engined shaftdrive boat it is still possible to make forward progress even with the rudders stuck hard over to one side or another. By using the differential thrust of the opposite engine against the rudders you should still be able to make headway and even if the rudders are still steering you to one side you can stop and point the boat in the opposite direction using reverse thrust on the other engine or using the bowthruster and make progress in a series of arcs. We had a situation just like this off the E coast of Majorca a few years ago in quite lumpy seas. I did think about putting out a pan pan but thought better of it once I found a technique for making forward progress. It took us nearly 3 hrs to make the 6 miles or so to Cala d'Or where the marina refused to send out their RIB even to help guide us into a berth. Barstewards

Obviously if the rudders are stuck vaguely amidships then it is much less of a problem and you can make good progress revving one engine a bit harder than the other to counteract the rudders

 

[Portofino]

Bit late to this , seems you did everything right and Thx fir sharing .
On my previous boat a KAD 300 twin the ram was athwart the transom , inside .I seem to recall a U shaped piece of metal you are supposed to jam that in somewhere to hold them in neutral fwds?
Every time I did my racing snake impressions and happened to be at the back , crawling over them I looked but could never fathom out where this locking key went .
This boat the ram is under a bunk in the aft cabin athwart the transom , I think you just pop off a couple of split pins and let rge blades weather cock so to speak .They not much use over 26 knots anyhow tbo .Finish close 1/4 on throttles .

Interestingly the BCS hydraulics run the rudder ram , passerelle and flaps .
Apparently the fluid is boggo 0 30 W single weight oil , same as the twin disc g boxes .
I did question this btw .

Anyhow S how old are the rams ?
Do you scape / clean them ?
Appreciate you cant park them closed like flaps .
Have they got gaiters to keep the sun off ?

Hope the Arnesons guys are watching., a mate of mine routinely / annually renews his ram seals , they are designed for this .
Its actually what put me off a Arnesons boat the unprotected ram seals tbo .Sort of figured that one out .

I think the VP D series are replaceable ? Or can they be “ serviced “ ....duno ?

 

[Hurricane]

Not sure this works with hydraulic steering - if enough fluid is lost, they just flop from one side to the other.

Worked for me with shafts.
Rudders must have kept relatively straight.
Managed to make a reasonable way as well (15/18 knots IIRC)
The procedure was to just push the relevant throttle a small amount to correct any course deviation.
Once we were in the anchorage, manoeuvring was as usual - I don't use the rudders then anyway.

 

[julians]

I think the VP D series are replaceable ? Or can they be “ serviced “ ....duno ?

Volvo penta d series rams are not rebuildable (at least not officially), but they are now quite cheap at 200 quid per ram, and are easy to fit. They didn't used to be so cheap, think they started around 1000 quid per ram.

On the d series you can fairly easily detect the early signs of the seals leaking because you either see oil on the surface of the water at the back of the boat, or the steering starts to feel notchy as the fluid level decreases, from that point they'll last quite a while if you keep the fluid topped up so you can normally wait until your next scheduled lift out to get them fixed.

 

[Greg2]

Same thing happened to people we know a couple of weeks ago on passage from Poole to the Solent. In their case conditions weren’t good and eventually they lost steering completely resulting in the RNLI towing them into Yarmouth. It turned out that they had lost all hydraulic fluid and the steering pump trashed itself - likely cause appears to be a failed hose or ram. Never understood the wisdom of VP putting steering rams on the wet side of the hull on the D series engines / drives

 

[PilotWolf]

Other than checking all levels before every trip and keeping more than enough to refill the system I don’t see what else you could have done.

W.

 

[jrudge]

So it seems steering systems are less reliable than Williams ribs !

 

[BruceK]

I struggle to understand why later incarnations of drives bypassed this very basic of fall backs to a loss in hydraulics. That there is no system of at least locking the drives readily into a neutral position. Knowing that it would really bother me. I find it an own goal w.r.t. tech advancement and quite frankly unacceptable. For my own part had I not had throttle steering I would have been in some serious trouble indeed. How can people pay a couple hundred K plus plenty more onwards for a boat that does not have redundant systems to at least enable self help? It makes a complete mockery of the ethos behind twin engines.

 

[Sticky Fingers]

I struggle to understand why later incarnations of drives bypassed this very basic of fall backs to a loss in hydraulics. That there is no system of at least locking the drives readily into a neutral position. Knowing that it would really bother me. I find it an own goal w.r.t. tech advancement and quite frankly unacceptable. For my own part had I not had throttle steering I would have been in some serious trouble indeed. How can people pay a couple hundred K plus plenty more onwards for a boat that does not have redundant systems to at least enable self help? It makes a complete mockery of the ethos behind twin engines.

That's exactly what I have realised reading this... maybe it's not true? I'll have a look tomorrow.