Painting wood from scratch

[pmagowan]

Hi all,

The boat: Honeybee yacht, 28 foot, mahogany carvel construction. About 50 years old

I have most of the paint off and am about to sand smooth, cut out and repair rot etc.

I need to know what the best paint system is (if there is one)
My plan has been Epifanes yacht enamel.
On the site it states the following regime

Werdol wood primer 1 coat
Filler for defects
Yacht enamel 1 coat thinned
yacht enamel 3 coats raw

Questions:
What primer do I use beneath the waterline and is there not one that would do the whole lot?
Do I not have to put another coat on over the filler?
What should I use to prime the cast iron ballast?

Am I going in the right direction? Hints/Tips welcome

Thanks

 

[clouty]

Questions:
What primer do I use beneath the waterline and is there not one that would do the whole lot?
Do I not have to put another coat on over the filler?
What should I use to prime the cast iron ballast?

Blakes wood primer was my favorite, back in the day. Perhaps there is a snazzy two part version now, but it will be more expensive and harder to apply well. The advantage of Blakes is that it needs quite a lot of thinning with white spirit, which is much cheaper than primer. Yes the same primer can be used everywhere that isn't varnished.

Coat the lot, fill any missed defects, patch prime over filler.

Do make sure all your paints are thinned to the right consistency, so the paint flows well. Always better, and often quicker, to do two thin coats than one thick.

I'll pass on the keel primer.

 

[xtiffer]

Most important thing is to get the prep right.
Suggest you use "torture boards" to do the sanding
( pref. 2 man board if you have a willing partner).
Machines just can't deal well with the curves.
For the paint choose a system to use and follow the manufacturer's instructions to the letter.
For a "perfection" job then Awlgrip would be the way to go
but perhaps not the best idea on a wooden boat or in the hands of an amateur.
These days International are producing some good paints
and certainly they offer good advice & instructions.
Cheers,
Chris

 

[andygc]

There's no best paint system. Our boat is a 70-yrs-old 27 footer also carvel planked. We have used International Toplac, Epifanes Yacht Enamel and Blakes Enamel. We found the Blakes a bit soft, with colour getting onto the fenders. International and Epifanes are fine.

It is preferable to use a metallic primer below the waterline - 2 coats. eg Blakes

On your iron, if you are starting from scratch have the metal blasted to remove rust and then paint it immediately with a primer intended for use on keels - all the manufacturers have recommended primers (for Blakes the web site is Hempel).

If you are applying your paint by brush or roller then don't thin it unless the manufacturer specifically recommends it - you want the right thickness of coat, and thinning it doesn't do that.

 

[pmagowan]

Thanks guys,
I am in the process of sanding the hull and my arms are sore.
I am looking at the price of antifouling and the Epifanes Foul away is rediculously expensive. They also have one called werdol which is cheap. Not sure why one costs a fraction of the other when they supposedly do the same thing.
Will have a look at the Blakes

 

[pmagowan]

My current plan is as follows;

Blakes grey metalic primer for above and below the waterline
International primocon for the cast iron keel
Blakes underwater primer for 1 coat below the waterline
Blakes cruising performer antifoul
Epifanes No 2 enamel for topsides

Does this sound right?

Also should I use the proprietry thinners or is white spirit OK?

Thanks

 

[andygc]

If you are going to use Epifanes enamel you would be wise to follow Epifanes recommended paint scheme from the wood up. Same for Blakes, same for International. The paints have been tested for use together.

If you want to thin the paint because the maker recommends it, use the recommended thinner. White spirit is not compatible with some paints - eg antifouling. Don't thin just because the paint is a bit thick - keep the tin somewhere warm overnight and it won't be thick. If the maker does not recommend thinning, don't. After all, they have spent thousands on R&D and formulated the paint - chances are that their advice is more reliable than something picked up on an internet forum, so go to the website to download the painting guide, or get the printed version from the chandler - it's free.

But I'll still offer some advice Don't paint from the tin if you are only going to use half of it - pour what you need into a pot and seal the tin to avoid losing solvent - and the paint won't get thicker in the tin.

Don't waste thinners or white spirit on cleaning primer or antifouling roller heads and brushes - just leave them in the part-used tin - they will be fine to reuse next time you open the tin.

PS Awlgrip definitely not suitable:
quote from their website "Awlgrip does not consider cracking over seams or miters a failure." (it's American, hence the spelling)

 

[Seanick]

As the others said, follow the manufactureres instructions to the letter.

With a complete strip of we would never use less than 4 coats Primocon all over.

Why? Its a good foundation that stops the timber drying out when the job is finished. One coat of primer is a waste of time.

Undercoats, at least 4 to five coats. Why? This gives the build up you need to be able to sand back with 240 for a decent finish before applying....

a 'half and half' coat,ie half gloss and half u/coat..../.before flatting back wet or with the random with 320 and applying the last coat of gloss. If you want it to last more than a year then two coats of gloss.


One key to this is to watch you overcoating times. If you don't overcoat within three days you must sand to matt all over, otherwise the next coat may not bond with the last one (cross linking and 'intermolecular bonding')


Still looking forward to a pic of the boat, especially one with the paint off.

 

[Bobobolinsky]

A friend of mine swears by cheap red oxide industrial primer. Two thinned coats, caulk and two further coats. Twin packs are not too good for a boat of this age.

 

[oldharry]

"I need to know what the best paint system is (if there is one)"

As you probably by now realise, there is no 'best paint system'. With such a wide market choice, each of us has our own pet 'system' for maintaining our boats, but a post like this does quite often end up with a consensus opinion which gives a pointer to the most widely used products and the best ways of applying them. One thing I think we would all agree - preparation is all.

A number of forumites quite happily use Dulux Weathershield ("Guaranteed for 10 years" it says on the tin...) and find that it stands up as well as the more expensive 'Marine' paints, though it is more difficult to get a really good finish with the softer paint. For non slip decks, many of us find that a good grade of textured Masonry Paint is easier to apply and a lot more durable than conventional marine grade non slip - and is a good deal more comfortable for bare bums to sit on! Some even reckon the cheapo Homebase stuff performs well. Theres no doubt in my mind that a well prepared coating of Dulux will last much longer than any high grade stuff slapped on without adequate preparation.

But a 'proper' boat like yours deserves 'proper' paint - IMHO anyway!

 

[pmagowan]

Thanks Guys. I have made my choice and paid my money now lets just hope it all works. I have had to ignore some advice and have followed others. The quality paints are not in great supply around my neck of the woods so I will have to mix and match a bit but overall I think I will have a good system.

The boat is now almost back to wood (my arms are sore) and some of the paint has started to arrive in the post. I will try and get pictures on the web when I get the time.

I have some small pictures on this site
under restoration. I have a lot of work to do on the site but the boat comes first.

I hope to get some good thinned metalic primer on sometime around Christmas and I have some Primocon for the keel when I get it angle grinded.

Thanks

 

[oldharry]

I have some Primocon for the keel when I get it angle grinded.

Thanks

Angle grinding is generally not the recommended way of prepping a keel: Firstly the grinder 'smears' the surface of the metal, and traps pockets of rust beneath the bright metal. They all then come popping through soon after you have put your expensive paint system. Very jolly.... not! Also, though I have not experienced this myself, grinders can have a polishing action on the metal which makes it more difficult for the paint to adhere properly.

Various alternatives include wire brushing, treatment with a needle gun, or patent chemical de-rust cures (tendency towards snake oil here IMHO), but generally it is reckoned the best preparation is grit blasting then coating immediately with primer before airtborne moisture has a chance to get at the bright metal.

 

[Keith 66]

I have used Epifanes paints on several boats & you will not be disapointed, the werdol woodprimer & Bootlak topcoat are good stuff & sticks for years, i used it on a 1938 Rye Beach boat & 17 years down the line her topsides are still looking good, i used to rub down & recoat once a year not because it needed doing but because when i had done it it looked so damn good! Werdol is a combined primer undercoat so i would use two coats minimum followed by the Gloss. Below waterline an aluminium based primer is probably slightly better.

 

[Lakesailor]

Twisted wire brushes in angle grinders are ideal. They strip the coatings and rust but do not damage the metal surface.

This radial brush is better than the cup brushes available, but be careful with PPE. Leather gloves, goggles and preferably a visor. Don't stand in-line with the brush as the wires do fly out and stick in your face!

I've stripped the inside of a Mini (covered in Hammerite) and cooker griddles with them. They are spot on. Don't buy cheap ones from the market. They spray wires like confetti.

 

[pmagowan]

Thanks guys I like epifanes varnish and have seen a few boats painted in the bootlac and they look good. I am hoping for a good result after all this sanding!
I like the idea of those wire brushes. I was thinking of the angle grinder because the paint guide said you could do this. It recommended you left an 'anchor pattern' with it. I dont have acess to needle guns or grit blasting.
My main problem is the temperature, it is minus 9C. I guess I will have to wait for it to warm up.

Merry Christmas