Oyster Yachts gone into administration

[Tranona]

Please tell me, but without your nose growing, the Bavaria 37 is a similar boat to the HR37?? I worked on a whole range of boat, also Bavaria´s and HR´s and it is not difficult AT ALL to justify the extra cost. Just look at the construction, quality of products, craftmanship, design, etc. You can´t afford one, that is the issue. And that is OK, but don´t make out that Bavarias are as good as Hallbergs. It´s like saying the moon is made of cheese and the pope is jewish: nonsense!!

You are misreading what is being said. Of course the HR is "better" than a Bavaria as it should be given it cost more than twice as much. The question is about value for money. Like pvb I have a new type Bavaria (replacing an older one). Like him I would love to have bought an HR 310 but they simply are not good value in comparison. it is not a question of money in absolute terms. I could have afforded to buy one but could not justify tying up that amount of money in relation to what I would get out of it. A large proportion of both boats (and arguably some of the important bits) are exactly the same and the total weight and volume of materials similar (actually greater in the Bavaria). The biggest difference is in the amount of labour - you are paying a premium for expensive Scandinavian labour and in my view that premium is not reflected in the tangible differences in the end product. Those prepared to pay the premium probably do so for the intangibles (at least that is how they often justify it).

The point that is being made is that the mass producers (as in many consumer products) pitch their offering at a mass market and need to satisfy that sector. This in turn gives them volume that allows them to produce a high quality product at a price substantially lower than those who aim for a small market share.

To me one of the most important things I was looking for was simplicity and reliability - so far met. The boat had no faults on delivery, and has not developed any in the 2 1/2 years since delivery. Compare this with the snag lists I have seen from the so called "quality" builders. My previous Bavaria was the same, and then survived 7 seasons of virtually trouble free intensive charter use.

So, not nonsense at all. Just knowledgeable people making sound decisions with their own money rather than listening to the hype used by some to talk up what is to my mind an undeserved premium. 25 years ago the premium was closer to 50% rather than 100% and more people were prepared to pay it - hence the large numbers of 29, 31 and 34 HRs that were sold. Since then the mass producers have improved their boats and reduced prices so widening the price difference. You can see the result - the smaller HRs do not sell in volume and the larger ones are moving towards the mass producers in design.

 

[pvb]

Please tell me, but without your nose growing, the Bavaria 37 is a similar boat to the HR37?? I worked on a whole range of boat, also Bavaria´s and HR´s and it is not difficult AT ALL to justify the extra cost. Just look at the construction, quality of products, craftmanship, design, etc. You can´t afford one, that is the issue. And that is OK, but don´t make out that Bavarias are as good as Hallbergs. It´s like saying the moon is made of cheese and the pope is jewish: nonsense!!

In terms of construction, both boats are well made and strong. The hull weight (displacement minus ballast) of the Bavaria is a bit heavier, surprisingly, especially in view of the HR's teak deck, bigger engine and fixed windscreen.

In terms of quality of products, they both use top-brand gear from Volvo Penta, Seldén, Elvström, Lewmar, Jefa, Jabsco, Isotherm, Raymarine/Garmin, etc. The HR has a bigger engine and bigger tanks, and probably a nicer cooker.

In terms of craftsmanship, both builders make extensive use of CNC-machining to guarantee excellent fit and finish. After 3 seasons with the Bavaria, I'm pleased to say there have been no leaks, no squeaks or creaks, no failures.

In terms of design, certainly the HR wins hands down in cosmetic terms, with nicer woodwork and upholstery inside, and with that lovely windscreen and deck. But is that really worth more than twice the price of the Bavaria?

You may have worked on lots of different boat brands, but have you ever actually bought a Hallberg-Rassy? I have. And it's rather presumptuous of you to claim "You can´t afford one, that is the issue", because I certainly can afford a new HR, I just can't justify paying more than twice the price of a thoroughly competent boat of the same size, especially as my sailing time is now more limited than I'd like.

 

[Daydream believer]

Please tell me, but without your nose growing, the Bavaria 37 is a similar boat to the HR37?? I worked on a whole range of boat, also Bavaria´s and HR´s and it is not difficult AT ALL to justify the extra cost. Just look at the construction, quality of products, craftmanship, design, etc. You can´t afford one, that is the issue. And that is OK, but don´t make out that Bavarias are as good as Hallbergs. It´s like saying the moon is made of cheese and the pope is jewish: nonsense!!

Quality of products? Does that mean that the lewmar/Harken winches or the Spinnlock clutches,the cleats, the stanchions, the navigation lights the deck hatches the rudder bearings The guard rail wires the push pit, the halyards the mainsheet & the like are all of some much higher standard? Are you telling us that the piping to the fresh water is some different material. The engine is a Rolls Royce Merlin in lieu of a Volvo Penta.

I would suggest that the shape of the hull of later HR's have actually changed to match the style of the Bav,Jen,Ben simply because it was being left behind so hull shape does not warrant so much extra

Clearly the HR is a superior construction & the detailing does justify some extra cost, but not double. The likes of Bavaria produce excellent craft & whilst there are the knockers they do not deserve it.

 

[dom]

Please tell me, but without your nose growing, the Bavaria 37 is a similar boat to the HR37?? I worked on a whole range of boat, also Bavaria´s and HR´s and it is not difficult AT ALL to justify the extra cost. Just look at the construction, quality of products, craftmanship, design, etc. You can´t afford one, that is the issue. And that is OK, but don´t make out that Bavarias are as good as Hallbergs. It´s like saying the moon is made of cheese and the pope is jewish: nonsense!!

LOL! I’m guessing you’re not a Brit then judging from your location. Next time you’re in the UK, why not roll up for a round of Golf at Wentworth, St George’s Hill, Centurion, or wherever. There’ll be few there with a net worth less than £5m and plenty with £100m+. Now look at the cars: 10yr old Golfs, Polos, Smart Cars, ancient Mercs, prehistoric Jaguars, etc.

Reminds me of a story about 20yrs ago (dunno if true) about a wealthy Irish golfer playing in Augusta banging on about his wealth a bit too much. Someone finally asked him how rich he was. £50m came the answer. So what are the fair odds for a coin flip with a payout of £20?, an Augusta golfer asked. £10.00 came the reply. Wrong said the American, I think it’s £5. The Irishman laughed out loud. Wanting to settle the matter the Augusta golfer said, okay if you’re so sure, I’ll wager you £200m against your entire £50m fortune on the flip of a coin. The Irishman was stuck for words !! (BTW I’m Irish so not racist )

Edit: prob best to hold the ‘nose growing’ quip if you do actually book a round at any of those places

 

[JumbleDuck]

You are misreading what is being said. Of course the HR is "better" than a Bavaria as it should be given it cost more than twice as much. The question is about value for money. Like pvb I have a new type Bavaria (replacing an older one). Like him I would love to have bought an HR 310 but they simply are not good value in comparison. it is not a question of money in absolute terms. I could have afforded to buy one but could not justify tying up that amount of money in relation to what I would get out of it. A large proportion of both boats (and arguably some of the important bits) are exactly the same and the total weight and volume of materials similar (actually greater in the Bavaria). The biggest difference is in the amount of labour - you are paying a premium for expensive Scandinavian labour and in my view that premium is not reflected in the tangible differences in the end product. Those prepared to pay the premium probably do so for the intangibles (at least that is how they often justify it).

(Repeat) A couple of years ago I was on board a HR while three small children played hide-and-seek. This revealed all sorts of bits which would normally be behind the scenes, and impressive they weren't. There is no great virtue in paying people to do slowly by hand what machines can do faster and better.

 

[lw395]

You might as well witter on that a Bentley is not a better car than a Ford.
It doesn't alter the relative market values of Bentleys and Fords.

If you want to make money in the UK, the high-price sector is probably a better bet than competing for market share, whether you are talking boats, electronics, cars or many other things.

 

[Tranona]

(Repeat) A couple of years ago I was on board a HR while three small children played hide-and-seek. This revealed all sorts of bits which would normally be behind the scenes, and impressive they weren't. There is no great virtue in paying people to do slowly by hand what machines can do faster and better.

Shush! You are not supposed to see that - nor to see the snag lists on new deliveries (owners tend not to share them for obvious reasons) nor the the cases where HR have been sued for defective hulls!

Still, at least HR now uses machines for doing much of the interior woodwork, reserving the skilled labour for the final touches that give showroom appeal.

 

[SO40]

LOL! I’m guessing you’re not a Brit then judging from your location. Next time you’re in the UK, why not roll up for a round of Golf at Wentworth, St George’s Hill, Centurion, or wherever. There’ll be few there with a net worth less than £5m and plenty with £100m+. Now look at the cars: 10yr old Golfs, Polos, Smart Cars, ancient Mercs, prehistoric Jaguars, etc.

Reminds me of a story about 20yrs ago (dunno if true) about a wealthy Irish golfer playing in Augusta banging on about his wealth a bit too much. Someone finally asked him how rich he was. £50m came the answer. So what are the fair odds for a coin flip with a payout of £20?, an Augusta golfer asked. £10.00 came the reply. Wrong said the American, I think it’s £5. The Irishman laughed out loud. Wanting to settle the matter the Augusta golfer said, okay if you’re so sure, I’ll wager you £200m against your entire £50m fortune on the flip of a coin. The Irishman was stuck for words !! (BTW I’m Irish so not racist )

Edit: prob best to hold the ‘nose growing’ quip if you do actually book a round at any of those places

I had my wedding recepcion at Wentworth Golfclub. Can´t say I saw many old cars...... maybe it was "new riche day" that day!

 

[dom]

I had my wedding recepcion at Wentworth Golfclub. Can´t say I saw many old cars...... maybe it was "new riche day" that day!

Depends a bit on the day to be fair and certainly after the ‘change in management’? Either way, wld be happy to post a pic of one of the other two car parks right now if i had one of those google number plate redacty gizzmos. Else, happy for you to check for yourself next time you’re passing if you fancy a beer! Oh, and nobody will even dream of looking you up and down like those oily old fake-tanned Oyster salesmen did

 

[Poecheng]

Shush! You are not supposed to see that - nor to see the snag lists on new deliveries (owners tend not to share them for obvious reasons) nor the the cases where HR have been sued for defective hulls!

I have for a while been idly (armchair) looking at biggish HRs and, a couple of years back, a beautiful HR46 arrived for sale.
Prior to it being on the UK market the owner (plainly highly knowledgeable) had his own website where the boat's travels were set out plus the fact that it was for sale. There was a very detailed section on what had gone wrong in his ownership and work that he had had done to put it right - matters that he had put right to a far higher standard than supplied. IIRC, there was some real criticism of HR in there as well as their deafness to owner criticism.
Within a very short time of it appearing on a broker's site, that page and the criticisms had gone from the owner's site. Shame really because it all reflected well on the owner and the quality of the boat being offered for sale.

 

[doug748]

Please tell me, but without your nose growing, the Bavaria 37 is a similar boat to the HR37?? I worked on a whole range of boat, also Bavaria´s and HR´s and it is not difficult AT ALL to justify the extra cost. Just look at the construction, quality of products, craftmanship, design, etc. You can´t afford one, that is the issue. And that is OK, but don´t make out that Bavarias are as good as Hallbergs. It´s like saying the moon is made of cheese and the pope is jewish: nonsense!!

You must know we have a chippy minority group on the forum and I believe you are just trying to wind them up, cheeky monkey.:eek-new:

 

[mjcoon]

Within a very short time of it appearing on a broker's site, that page and the criticisms had gone from the owner's site. Shame really because it all reflected well on the owner and the quality of the boat being offered for sale.

If you were very sneaky, you could look on the "Wayback Machine" internet archive (https://archive.org/web/) to see if it was captured there, because I bet no-one had it removed...

Mike.

 

[Tranona]

You must know we have a chippy minority group on the forum and I believe you are just trying to wind them up, cheeky monkey.:eek-new:

Ah well at least the "chippy minority" know what they are talking about from first hand experience unlike some I could mention who sit on the sidelines sniping.

 

[rotrax]

LOL! I’m guessing you’re not a Brit then judging from your location. Next time you’re in the UK, why not roll up for a round of Golf at Wentworth, St George’s Hill, Centurion, or wherever. There’ll be few there with a net worth less than £5m and plenty with £100m+. Now look at the cars: 10yr old Golfs, Polos, Smart Cars, ancient Mercs, prehistoric Jaguars, etc.

Reminds me of a story about 20yrs ago (dunno if true) about a wealthy Irish golfer playing in Augusta banging on about his wealth a bit too much. Someone finally asked him how rich he was. £50m came the answer. So what are the fair odds for a coin flip with a payout of £20?, an Augusta golfer asked. £10.00 came the reply. Wrong said the American, I think it’s £5. The Irishman laughed out loud. Wanting to settle the matter the Augusta golfer said, okay if you’re so sure, I’ll wager you £200m against your entire £50m fortune on the flip of a coin. The Irishman was stuck for words !! (BTW I’m Irish so not racist )

Edit: prob best to hold the ‘nose growing’ quip if you do actually book a round at any of those places

There was a story of a courier who had to deliver some important legal documents. They were addressed to a titled Englishman at his Stately Home.

When he arrived at the huge front doors and pulled the bell rope, despite the bell being clearly heard from outside, no one answered the door.

He drove back down the drive and to the local pub, almost opposite. He asked the Publican if he knew the Lord.

" Thats 'im over there, clipping that 'ole 'olly tree " came the reply.

" What-that old bloke with holes in his pullover and the arse hanging out of his trousers? "

" Thats 'im-you 'as to be bloody rich to get away with dressing as badly 'as 'is Lordship does! " said the Publican.......................

 

[dom]

Oyster’s story is interesting. I often wonder if the stories that people tell about themselves, their boats and their social relationships, are all somehow connected. Money is usually kept in the background and the sea certainly doesn’t recognise it.

Then along came the likes of Oyster (old-Oyster to be fair) who immediately wished to divide rich from poor; “Champagne for you Sir”, “Step right back please Madame”. It felt so so wrong, including to those who would have happily bought their 55-75’ boats.

So they were forced to chase foreigners from different social structures, because the locals had no money, because UK plc was all run as ineptly as Oyster ...or so a certain character at old-Oyster appears to have thought.
The END!

BTW: the very best of luck to the new owners and workforce. Hopefully new-Oyster is a big success!

 

[guardian]

Oyster’s story is interesting. I often wonder if the stories that people tell about themselves, their boats and their social relationships, are all somehow connected. Money is usually kept in the background and the sea certainly doesn’t recognise it.

Then along came the likes of Oyster (old-Oyster to be fair) who immediately wished to divide rich from poor; “Champagne for you Sir”, “Step right back please Madame”. It felt so so wrong, including to those who would have happily bought their 55-75’ boats.

So they were forced to chase foreigners from different social structures, because the locals had no money, because UK plc was all run as ineptly as Oyster ...or so a certain character at old-Oyster appears to have thought.
The END!

BTW: the very best of luck to the new owners and workforce. Hopefully new-Oyster is a big success!

I think the Oyster saga does little to dispel the trope about British management.......................

 

[lw395]

I think the Oyster saga does little to dispel the trope about British management.......................

Although the real problem may lie with the Dutch owners?

 

[JumbleDuck]

Reminds me of a story about 20yrs ago (dunno if true) about a wealthy Irish golfer playing in Augusta banging on about his wealth a bit too much. Someone finally asked him how rich he was. £50m came the answer. So what are the fair odds for a coin flip with a payout of £20?, an Augusta golfer asked. £10.00 came the reply. Wrong said the American, I think it’s £5. The Irishman laughed out loud. Wanting to settle the matter the Augusta golfer said, okay if you’re so sure, I’ll wager you £200m against your entire £50m fortune on the flip of a coin. The Irishman was stuck for words !!

OK, I'll bite. Is there supposed to be some deep meaning to that, beyond "American more willing to lose entire £200m fortune than Irishman to lose £50m"?

 

[dom]

OK, I'll bite. Is there supposed to be some deep meaning to that, beyond "American more willing to lose entire £200m fortune than Irishman to lose £50m"?

Sorry I wasn't clear, Practically speaking many Augusta members are very wealthy: Warren Buffet, Charlie Munger, Bill Gates, Jack Welch, etc. But by no means all, and the annual sub at this invitation-only club is far lower than many other US clubs. An unsaid rule there is, "if you need to ask, you shouldn't be here". Asking, or boasting about wealth is an absolute no no.

What the Irishman missed here was that the marginal utility of his entire fortune (£50m) was greater to him than the marginal utility of £200m to the American, which in his case represented a trifling amount. The Irishman's laughter stopped when he realised this.

In the context of the UK, it's not really for me to say. But I would have thought that Gladstone's era at the end of the nineteenth century saw a change in the nature of the struggle between the UK's so-called elite and its middle and working classes. As time went by the nature of wealth changed and some saw its direction towards investment and philanthropy as a more noble cause than driving an expensive carriage with a plume on the horse's head. And to first group, it can feel like a red line has been crossed when some fake-tanned jerk in a Boatshow asks visitors to identify themselves as rich or poor. I'm not sure old-Oyster got this delicate balance quite right.

 

[Scolly]

Oyster’s story is interesting. I often wonder if the stories that people tell about themselves, their boats and their social relationships, are all somehow connected. Money is usually kept in the background and the sea certainly doesn’t recognise it.

Then along came the likes of Oyster (old-Oyster to be fair) who immediately wished to divide rich from poor; “Champagne for you Sir”, “Step right back please Madame”. It felt so so wrong, including to those who would have happily bought their 55-75’ boats.

So they were forced to chase foreigners from different social structures, because the locals had no money, because UK plc was all run as ineptly as Oyster ...or so a certain character at old-Oyster appears to have thought.
The END!

BTW: the very best of luck to the new owners and workforce. Hopefully new-Oyster is a big success!

This is probably the biggest load tosh to be posted to this thread