Ouzo - drowned despite lifejackets ?

bobgosling

bobgosling

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According to Sky News the Ouzo crew were retrieved from the water with inflated lifejackets but had all drowned ?!

Were wave conditions particularly bad that night ?

I think I'm off to the chandlers to look for a sprayhood and handheld VHF
 
It appears that all three may have been in the water for a considerable time before they were found. All too easy to drown regardless of a lifejacket if you are cold and exhausted, and become unconscious.
 
Now you may understand why Immersion suits in North Sea ?

Uk waters are not conducive to survival for more than minutes .......

Channel swimmers are "greased-up" seriously and still emrge from water totally thermally compromised ....

For me - I am so sorry for the guys and their Families.

I am also against many perceptions in threads / posts that are prevailing ... This is a serious and sad occasion .... and I wish that many would refrain from adding their interpretations until full details / investigations are clear ....

Flame me ... it is my opinion ...
 
Re: Now you may understand why Immersion suits in North Sea ?

It is unlikely that the full details will ever be clear and the end result will be arrived at with much considered speculation from "the authorities" based on whatever evidence can be found.

Speculation is a normal response in these circumstances even by the families of those concerned, who more than anyone will want to know what's happened. This reluctance to talk about the recently deceased is an English trait, families can receive comfort from knowing people are concerned about those who are lost and often want to talk about them themselves.

All the speculation I have seen on here has been sympathetic to those involved, I am sure everyone on here feels sorrow for the families. I don't see anything wrong with that - that's my opinion.
 
Re: Now you may understand why Immersion suits in North Sea ?

Sorry I disagree.

Providing posts are respectful I think the debate these sad incidents generate can be educational to so many others. The what if senerio encompasses so many things while the MAIB will hopefully only identify the 1 cause and in their normal well written way mention the specific lessons learnt.

If we all went quite on this incident any lessons would only be discussed some 12 months later after the publication of the MAIB report while now many who have read these threads will be more conscious of the importance of watchkeeping including astern, ensuring your navigation lights are working at full strength, the benifits of both DSC and handheld VHF, The benefit of a lifejacket sprayhood ( I learnt that doing the survival course - I immediately went out to buy 2. It may also make some consider fitting strobe lights to their lifejackets - can be seen by helicopters from 12mls. Always using a buddy system with more regular check ins? Considering buying cheap secondhand survival suits? Ex dinghy sailors may now choose to keep their dry suits on board -just in case!

Separate to this thread I posted a "am I a wimp" thread in that I delayed our holiday as my handheld VHF and my autohelm were not working. Its incidents like this and the discussions after that have made me more cautious.

Yes the cause of this sad accident is speculation and further more refined speculation as more fact emerge. I am saddened by both the loss and some postings but we all occassionally say or post things quickly and regret them later.

Please don't discourage the discussion and the speculation if others can read suggestions and possible senarios and thereby many can learn and benefit from this sad incident even if the possibilities are not finally shown to be relevant to this particiular incident.

My thoughts and sypathy to the families involved.
 
I don\'t disagree with you ....

But having read some of the posts in other threads - leads me to my post earlier ....

Pride of Bilbao has not as far as I know been accused of anything - but perception is from some posts that she is involved. Mark I say PERCEPTION ..... trouble is that becomes "fact" later in grey history ......

I don't argue against debate of safety ..... I chaired enough safety meetings ........ what I was remarking on is mis-conceptions and mis-information that can be picked up as gospel by those less informed .................

Consider a newcomer to boating and to these forums .... then reads the threads .......... poor soul will be aghast.
 
Re: Now you may understand why Immersion suits in North Sea ?

Many, if not all, life jackets only hold an unconscious person at the correct angle on their back, face out of the water, if thigh straps are fitted and all straps pulled tight.

Hypothermia or exhaustion can lead to unconsiousness very quickly.

Also, anyone who has been in the water in an even slightly choppy sea wil tell you that a spray hood is not only important but vital.

Hands up if you wear thighstraps and hood with your life jacket.

I don't
 
Re: I don\'t disagree with you ....

I can understand where you are coming from if you are concerned about the Ferries reputation in order of importance you should aim you remarks first at the BBC as their reporting left an inuendo. I would consider the influence on this forum in encouraging speculation to become fact to be very little.

If the speculation encouraged more caution it must be to the good and I don't seriously think it would stop anyone sailing.

I always read the excellent MAIB reports and the lesson learnt but if I only read them and not the vast number of posts on these forums I to would get a false impression about the safety of sailing.
 
You want an honest answer ..........

I do not give myself much chance of survival if I fall into N.Europe waters .............

Prolonging the agony by adding bits delaying the inevitable ?? Actually having suffered thermal shock and thermal failure during College Survival Training - I know from first hand that you accept what is happening to you ... cold turns to tepid and you get lulled into falling asleep .... I owe my life to others who recognised what was happening to me ... I was not the only one. Marine Colleges don't conduct such exercises at sea any more ....

Exercise conducted outer Plymouth Sound, March - mid 70's. Commercial Ships LifeRaft .... College Yacht Tectona in attendance. Full Marine Lifejackets and checks before exercise started .... jump of Tectona into sea ... swim to liferaft .. board and sit for x time till College decided time to recover. I estimate we had about 2 - 3 mins in water, maybe 1 hr in raft - enough for myself and another to suffer serious problems.

QED ... OK
 
Re: Now you may understand why Immersion suits in North Sea ?

I agree there was an excellent post on here some while ago by a person who fell overboard nr Liverpool while racing and he detailed how quickly the cold affected him. From memory he couldn't help himself after 10min!

Learning from these Forums and doing the RYA courses I bought 2 new lifejackets with thigh straps and spray hoods and latter added stobe light. I also carry a mini pack of 10 parachute flares! Like the EPIRB I hope they are all the biggest waste of money and I never need them. Unfortunately my crash helmet on my motorcycle was not a waste even before they were compulsary!! When working offshore we had to always put on survival suits before getting in the helicopter - again thank god a complete waste of time - but its always the what if senario!!

I agree about the effect of the cold water its so important to ensure no one goes overboard. We always encourage people to use harnesses on our boat when reefed or going on deck at night.

I consider the biggest risks on a boat is

1. Going overboard

2. Hit by a boom or block in an accidental gybe.

3. Burned by hot water either the kettle or the tap if the engine has been run as the water is boiling!!

Would others rate different bigger risks?
 
Re: Now you may understand why Immersion suits in North Sea ?

[ QUOTE ]
Uk waters are not conducive to survival for more than minutes ...

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't entirely agree. If you are thinking about the cold - if that were the important factor death would have been by heart failure or hypothermia, not drowning.

If you are dressed in normal oilies you would expect to survive at least 8 hours at this time of year - and 24 hours is quite possible.
 
Re: Now you may understand why Immersion suits in North Sea ?

Falling on things is the other major risk I am conscious of..... such as banging heads/arms/legs on winches or clutches....

Otherwise I agree...

I also agree Sailfree.... debate and discussion is good. I too have picked up things on here, and changed my practices as a consequence.... such as unplugging the shore end of the shore power lead first, putting my dinghy sailing drysuit on board, buying a diving mask to keep on board, and not using mast head lights, but deck level nav lights instead when at sea.
 
Re: You want an honest answer ..........

With out sounding like an 'Uncle Albert'

But when I was in the Navy I fell off the forecastle of a Leander class frigate whilst doing a 'RAS' just south of the Faeroes(sp?)

Moving fwd, life line attached, I bent to unclip the life line to move it past a deck eye. At that exact moment the ship banged into a wave which swept the forecastle party everywhere! When we came out of that wave I was out board holding onto the guard rails like a grab monkey and screaming my little head off!!

We rode up the next wave then into the third we went.

I didn't fall as such I was swept aft between the two ships. The shock of the water is unexplainable, Night mare stuff, watching a ship going away from me gives me the shivers.

Did they see me? Who else is in the ogin? A million things went through my head. Then six blasts on the ships 'hooter', which in the RN is emergency breakaway, and a sight of two war ships spinning around to come and save me.

I was only in the water for approx 5 mins but by this time I thought I had salt in my eyes disturbing my vision, but no it was ice forming on my eye lashes. Couldn't see anything apart from shadows after about 8 mins then could hardly move after about twelve. Body temperature drops like a stone when wet. A total of seventeen minutes in the water and close to being unconscious.

I was heaved out of the water by the swimmer of the watch and into the Skippers bath. The water in the bath was continually filled and emptied to get my core temp up slowly. I was wearing the RN foulies, bit basic, nothing like the gortex stuff today. a Hazardous duty life jacket, and basic seamans rig under. In my opinion now, no where near the correct layers, material, but we all learn, The RN included, talking helps.

Cold shock it's a ...... well you know what I mean.

These poor guys out there need people to discuss the situation. If no one had spoken and speculated about what to do in these situations I would not have had the knowledge to carry out the drills I had been taught in training.

How many of us wear a life jacket in all weathers. I do, much rather have it on and not need it as appose to being on the wet side wishing I had put one on.

Discuss this tragedy, learn by it, support each other, look out for each other.

I know it sounds a bit 'Hill Street Blues', but hey!

It's the life we love at sea.

Thoughts go out to all concerned

AJ
 
Re: Now you may understand why Immersion suits in North Sea ?

I thought it was about 2 hours to passing out, and 6 to death.

(MagnaCarter: Why is 60W shining on the waves so you can not see at sea good. I missed that one)
 
Re: Now you may understand why Immersion suits in North Sea ?

Hi SolarNeil

Your right, I was under the impression it was four hours to passing out.

This is the point, which you have brought to light, we all have differing views, sea temp in different clothing, how well each person is insulated and as mentioned earlier, how strong someones heart is.

After this happened I became a NILE Rating, 'Royal Naval Life Saving Equipment Maintainer and Instructor'.

I would swap places with anyone to lose the occaisional night mares.

As I mentioned in my post about last weekend. When ever I go out sailing, 60% of me is loving it, 40% is petrified. I dare not lose the fright part cause it makes me check, check, and check again. I don't tell anyone on the boat though, I am a big rufty tufty ex-matelot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I love it that much I keep going out there.

Can anyone else admit some thing like that?

AJ
 
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