Out Of Hours Power

[boatone]

The EA are trying to gather information about how well the Out of Hours Power is working and whether or not there are any major issues that need to be addressed.

A mini survey is asking the following questions:
1. Are the instructions provided on the pedestal for the operation of the “out of hours” system adequate? If no, how could they be improved…

2.Is the design and layout of the push button control stations on the lock side pedestals satisfactory, are the functions clear and the indicators logical?

3. Have you experienced any faults when operating the system?

4. Do you have other comments and recommendations for improvement

If you have specific experiences, including actual issues at particular locks and feel able to contribute, AngelaQ would be pleased to hear from you and you should send information by email to angela.quayle@environment-agency.gov.uk

 

[Chris_d]

1. Are the instructions provided on the pedestal for the operation of the “out of hours” system adequate? If no, how could they be improved…[/email]

Surely no real man would admit to reading the instructions

 

[TrueBlue]

This thread has died a death -

which is a pity; as if the Management gets no response they'll feel all is well, and we'll get no changes.

I suspect "your" silence is mainly due to the fact that most members of this forum operate downstream of Windsor where most of the locks are forgiving of any Users not doing what they oughta.

I have two issues:-

1. The modified round top pedestals have had an attack of Elfin Safety and it's not overly difficult for an impatient user to lock the system up for the next poor sucker.

2. Culham Lock - I'm not overly impatient but half an hour; fifteen minutes to fill the last foot of water is just not acceptable.

Otherwise for late cruising having 'leccy up to ten o'clock all the way up to traditional locks is fab:


So -
Has anyone got any real, practical ideas how inveterate button pushers can be deterred from screwing up the system for the next boater.
Remember, in general, the aforementioned can't be damned, or more probably are "ignorant", and don't give a Poo?

I'm going ahead anyway, but am really struggling to get the message across - on the pedestal, that is, "do it right, as instructed, and it'll be good for you and the following users, faff about and it'll need a call out, coupled with grief for the next punter".


OK guys put your thinking caps on, please.

 

[Captain Coochie]

I dont mind hand winding myself but i suppose it can be a pain for those in a rush . Maybe a key .......... actually no . Just leave it on hand wind . Its not a big issue and its the way the river should be .
No one want the wash from big boats all night long and i'm guessing its the people with big boats that dont want to hand wind a lock ?

 

[apollo]

Are you being paid a salary for all this on "er indoors" behalf?

I find the oop always works as it should, or at least my kids do!!!

Kids are always good at gadgets and pressing buttons.

Perhaps larger print for old duffers?

 

[boatone]

Are you being paid a salary for all this on "er indoors" behalf?

I find the oop always works as it should, or at least my kids do!!!
Kids are always good at gadgets and pressing buttons.
Perhaps larger print for old duffers?

Mike - there are times when you get pretty close to being insulting. Just because I see things a little differently to you doesn't mean that my views and opinions are not valid.
In particular, instead of continuously haranguing those that run the river - sometimes to the point of verging on extreme rudeness - I choose to try and contribute a little and see if I can in some small way assist in improving what can be improved.

Whilst the forum offers a place to let off steam it certainly is no substitute for providing measured and factual information to the powers that be. I was asked if I could help gather some specific feedback re OOP and that is what I did. Others have responded positively.

Your response is not really very helpful and inferring that old duffers cant read small print is a pretty cheap throwaway of little consequence - its more frequently the younger folk that cant be bothered to read things properly.

Nuff said .... love you really ... can we move on? Oh, and best wishes for the new job.

 

[apollo]

Er what in my response is not a positive response to oop? Thought not!

It was a serious point on my point, oop HAS always worked for us, but then we practuse what my old boss always told me ie "RTFM"

I am convinced a lot of moaning and problems are due to some river users "knowing it all better" and then trip the system. And sorry but they are the older ones, on that I DO disagree with you!

Now stop sitting on the fence and tell me what you really think!!!!

Anyone would have thought I had hit a raw nerve or something?

Will be at Cookham next weekend and you are welcome alongside but fenders please!!!

 

[Chris_d]

Er what in my response is not a positive response to oop? Thought not!

It was a serious point on my point, oop HAS always worked for us, but then we practuse what my old boss always told me ie "RTFM"

I am convinced a lot of moaning and problems are due to some river users "knowing it all better" and then trip the system. And sorry but they are the older ones, on that I DO disagree with you!

Now stop sitting on the fence and tell me what you really think!!!!

Anyone would have thought I had hit a raw nerve or something?

Will be at Cookham next weekend and you are welcome alongside but fenders please!!!

I think it was the "er indoors" snipe which upset B1? it was a bit cheap.

We have a good back door contact there and we should use it, it is definately yielding results.

 

[apollo]

it is definately yielding results.

Remind me of the positive results.....?

Serious question honest....

 

[Chris_d]

Remind me of the positive results.....?

Serious question honest....

Lockeeper houses campaign
New moorings e.g Hurley, Wallingford
Shoals removed e.g Benson
Unmanned lock signs
OOP at every lock
OOP improvement consultation
License fee increases held down
Tender license fee reduced
New sanitary facilties at Mapledurham
River level warnings online and sms service

and others I can't remember, the forum had its say in all of the above and I get the impression it was listened to, some at the EA are listening and AQ was at the TVR afterall she didn't have to go. The rumour mill can be very powerful

 

[TrueBlue]

I was hoping for something more positive -

It's not often that EA ask the users for their opinion, so as B1 says - let's reply with some sensible suggestions.

The lockies have already had their survey. For them the new system is excellent as they can now operate the remote end sluices from where they are at the time. The system gives them total control, so they are not aware of niggles about unattended speed of operation and system lockouts.

Of course experienced users such as folks on this forum always RTFM, and understand the principles of lock operation. However, "we" are in a very small minority...

My concern is how to attempt to stop the clots who hold the buttons for so long that the system goes into fault mode.

They won't RTFM - so how to get the message over? More importantly how to do it for small cost?

Remember that this equipment will be in place for years, so now is an opportunity to iron out the minor flaws. If more users are attracted to the River as time goes by, I suspect that there will be more occasions when the power goes off and more calls to the help line.

 

[apollo]

I think you missed “Peace in Northern Ireland” and the “Middle East”.
I appreciate your sentiment; However I think you are being a little naive!
Lockeeper houses campaign – even the online petition with 1000s of signatures didn’t nail this one until the policitians signed on to the bandwagon!

New moorings e.g Hurley, Wallingford – not even discussed on the forum until they were already started, so hardly think we can claim credit?

Shoals removed e.g Benson – maybe - although I think boat owners claiming for damages may have had more clout due to financial consequences and the liklehood that it was going to start costing them money..

Unmanned lock signs – these were a joke and hence I feel more only a matter of time. If it makes you happy then claim credit..

OOP at every lock – how on earth can you attribute this to the forum? Naive
OOP improvement consultation – being a bit previous? Lets see what comes of it..

License fee increases held down – aren’t you being a little unfair to IWA and ATYC? I suspect the many meetings they had during the daytime when we were all at work may have had more to do with this.

Tender license fee reduced – as 90% don’t buy one, a weak point I think. Also think you are being unfair to other lobby agencies like IWA and ATYC.

New sanitary facilties at Mapledurham – why on earth would you think this is in any way connected to Forum?

River level warnings online and sms service – Mmmm maybe, suspect the bad publicity of the widespread flooding in recent years and political lobbying has more to do with this..

Whereas I admit I may have laboured the point about Tone doing Angies job for her (sorry Unc!) , I would take this all a little more seriously if the EA were to post and respond themselves.
Then we could perhaps believe that the EA actually gave a ... what we thought..

 

[Chris_d]

I think you missed “Peace in Northern Ireland” and the “Middle East”.
I appreciate your sentiment; However I think you are being a little naive!
Lockeeper houses campaign – even the online petition with 1000s of signatures didn’t nail this one until the policitians signed on to the bandwagon!

New moorings e.g Hurley, Wallingford – not even discussed on the forum until they were already started, so hardly think we can claim credit?

Shoals removed e.g Benson – maybe - although I think boat owners claiming for damages may have had more clout due to financial consequences and the liklehood that it was going to start costing them money..

Unmanned lock signs – these were a joke and hence I feel more only a matter of time. If it makes you happy then claim credit..

OOP at every lock – how on earth can you attribute this to the forum? Naive
OOP improvement consultation – being a bit previous? Lets see what comes of it..

License fee increases held down – aren’t you being a little unfair to IWA and ATYC? I suspect the many meetings they had during the daytime when we were all at work may have had more to do with this.

Tender license fee reduced – as 90% don’t buy one, a weak point I think. Also think you are being unfair to other lobby agencies like IWA and ATYC.

New sanitary facilties at Mapledurham – why on earth would you think this is in any way connected to Forum?

River level warnings online and sms service – Mmmm maybe, suspect the bad publicity of the widespread flooding in recent years and political lobbying has more to do with this..

Whereas I admit I may have laboured the point about Tone doing Angies job for her (sorry Unc!) , I would take this all a little more seriously if the EA were to post and respond themselves.
Then we could perhaps believe that the EA actually gave a ... what we thought..

I think you missed the point, but never mind...

 

[apollo]

I think you missed the point, but never mind...

Now you are verging on insulting, I am well aware of the point.

Perhaps you guys could sort out world poverty by lunch?

 

[Gumpy]

The EA are trying to gather information about how well the Out of Hours Power is working and whether or not there are any major issues that need to be addressed.

A mini survey is asking the following questions:
1. Are the instructions provided on the pedestal for the operation of the “out of hours” system adequate? If no, how could they be improved…

2.Is the design and layout of the push button control stations on the lock side pedestals satisfactory, are the functions clear and the indicators logical?

3. Have you experienced any faults when operating the system?

4. Do you have other comments and recommendations for improvement

If you have specific experiences, including actual issues at particular locks and feel able to contribute, AngelaQ would be pleased to hear from you and you should send information by email to angela.quayle@environment-agency.gov.uk

My thoughts!
There needs to be an indicator to show if the sluices are open at the far end, yes I know you can see the sluices but many don't look.
Would be better to leave locks with sluices closed rather then open as people will not read instructions and press open sluices the the end they are at even though the ones at the other end are open.
Although it says press once to open sluices it needs to say press once until a click is heard as if you just dab the button nothing happens.

No faults here but then I RTFM.

Boat one can you send this off to Angela as I have no outgoing email at present.

 

[TrueBlue]

My thoughts!
There needs to be an indicator to show if the sluices are open at the far end, yes I know you can see the sluices but many don't look.
Would be better to leave locks with sluices closed rather then open as people will not read instructions and press open sluices the the end they are at even though the ones at the other end are open.
Although it says press once to open sluices it needs to say press once until a click is heard as if you just dab the button nothing happens.

Having done some work on this subject at a test lock, but not wishing to disparage your comments; here's my feedback.

A light to show the status of the remote end would be great, BUT it would need a fairly expensive change:-

• Replace the external panel on each cabinet to accommodate the light
• run extra wires from each end to the control box and back again
• reprogram the processors (probably)
• (There's a sluices down sensor, but is there a sluices up sensor?)
• The older square top cabinets don't have this facility and has anyone ever complained?

I can't see EA finding the money to make such a change.

Put sluices down -
The next boater going in the opposite direction will have to go through a complete sequence (30 minutes at Culham) just to open the gates to get him into the lock - you can't open the gates if the sluices are down, so you wouldn't be popular...
The old rule about leaving the downstream sluices up is sensible as it reduces the tendency of the lock walls to gunge up with algal growth, which make a mess of one's fenders.

Putting a message about waiting for a click would encourage some to hold the button in forever (if the other end is not in a ready state) and then the system locks out.

Trying to get a succinct message on a label affixed on the control panel - so that inveterate Non RFTMers can understand it is proving a challenge as the space is limited.

It's a very great pity that actual boaters who use the system were not consulted in the first place when designing the new systems....

 

[Glorfindel]

Pretty good

Upstream can be a pain when you have to do the whole 'Close Sluice' cycle when you approach an empty lock before you can open the gates.

Otherwise tiz a lot better than winding handles and the instructions are easy for those of us over 'That Sort Of Age'.

p.s.
Thanks Boatone for the heater info

 

[Gumpy]

Having done some work on this subject at a test lock, but not wishing to disparage your comments; here's my feedback.

A light to show the status of the remote end would be great, BUT it would need a fairly expensive change:-

• Replace the external panel on each cabinet to accommodate the light
• run extra wires from each end to the control box and back again
• reprogram the processors (probably)
• (There's a sluices down sensor, but is there a sluices up sensor?)
• The older square top cabinets don't have this facility and has anyone ever complained?

I can't see EA finding the money to make such a change.

Put sluices down -
The next boater going in the opposite direction will have to go through a complete sequence (30 minutes at Culham) just to open the gates to get him into the lock - you can't open the gates if the sluices are down, so you wouldn't be popular...
The old rule about leaving the downstream sluices up is sensible as it reduces the tendency of the lock walls to gunge up with algal growth, which make a mess of one's fenders.

Putting a message about waiting for a click would encourage some to hold the button in forever (if the other end is not in a ready state) and then the system locks out.

Trying to get a succinct message on a label affixed on the control panel - so that inveterate Non RFTMers can understand it is proving a challenge as the space is limited.

It's a very great pity that actual boaters who use the system were not consulted in the first place when designing the new systems....

I agree with the last comment
However the comments I made were just observations from someone that designs and writes manuals for similar automated systems. They have to be designed for the LCD I have always worked on the fact that that they should be usable without following the instructions by my eight year old daughter who is now 32.

Oh and this morning coming upstream the upper sluices at Benson were closed the lock empty and rather than chance the fact the the open gates at the downstream end would cause the system to lock out I had to open the sluices at the downstream end and wait for the system to finish before I could open the gates even though no water exited the lock.

IMO not a well designed system.

 

[TrueBlue]

I agree with the last comment
However the comments I made were just observations from someone that designs and writes manuals for similar automated systems. They have to be designed for the LCD I have always worked on the fact that that they should be usable without following the instructions by my eight year old daughter who is now 32.

Oh and this morning coming upstream the upper sluices at Benson were closed the lock empty and rather than chance the fact the the open gates at the downstream end would cause the system to lock out I had to open the sluices at the downstream end and wait for the system to finish before I could open the gates even though no water exited the lock.

IMO not a well designed system.

In return, I agree with your last comment

Heavens forfend that I should actually be seeing to defend EA, but I suspect that they took the square top equipment as their base model and Elfin Safety'd it.

I don't understand why - the square top system works well; having to push the sluices for each step is no great burden - and it at least ensures that there is someone in attendance at the pedestal during the process.

To my mind they (square top) units are probably safer.

As to LCDs - I wonder if they were considered. There have been issued with them on the pumpout kiosks, and worries about vandalism mitigated against them.

BW have similar systems at Brentford and some locks on the Lee, and EA may have talked to BW on the issue. Being (probably) electro mechanical, there would be no room for oversophistication!

The difference between BW and EA is that the former's locks are worked by folks who, of necessity, understand the process and operation. Thames boaters in the main are used to the locks being worked for them, and don't see that working by themselves is part of the experience.

Perhaps long distance boaters (you and I, and the rest) should be grateful that so many stop boating at lunchtime and out of hours.

Lockies wouldn't have been much help in advising on the new system, as they have total control (well nearly) when in attended mode.

The only serious issue of the new is that if any button is held for more than two minutes continuously, the logic treats that as a possible hard fault (sensor or button) and locks out accordingly; dropping all power. Resetting the mechanism is a right royal pain.

There isn't room on the control panel to put a detailed and accurate message to describe how to manage the buttons, for example:-

"(Please) do not hold either sluice button for more than ten seconds - the process is automatic; if the process does not start within that ten seconds, check that the remote end sluices are down. Do not hold either gate button after the gate is fully open/closed, otherwise the electrical system will cease to function, until reset by EA staff."

There is only about 5 x 1.5 inches space for a sticky label so the message has to be something like:-

Do not hold any button for more than two minutes or the system will self destruct (joke)

Now, I've discounted the instructions on the pedestal on the No RTFM principal, but they could be updated to make more sense (as opposed to just how to operate).

Similarly EA have a nice leaflet "Locks and weirs on the River Thames" - have you got a copy - which could be updated to include unattended operation.

Sorry, I've got a bit anoraky and carried away this morning, but it's worth kicking the issue around a bit - in the hope that a good solution can be found, after all this post will be read by others, who might make a contribution??

 

[Gumpy]

OK slight missunderstanding to the meaning of LCD
Lowest Common Denominator in this case.......

Having done two more OOHP locks this morning, some more observations.
It looks like it would be a relatively simple matter of adding an illuminating switch in the close paddles position (attended mode) as there is at Sandford I dont understsnd why thsi facility is not availble it is on BW electric locks and they have been around for years.
Now another point is that both locks this AM had sluices closed one was empty and I needed to fill it so saved me a button push. The other was full so I had to wait while the sluices opened for no reason........I tried short pushes and the system doesn't recognise them it needs a good two seconds to set the sluices off.
The systems that are used lower down the Thames where you have to open the sluices manually seem to work far better and are far clearer cant understsnd why someone tried to reinvent the wheel after all the number of buttons is the same.