Opps ....... I think I upset a Raggie !

May be wrong but 40ft of sealine @ 25 knots is going to cause more that a 2 ft wash.Esp annoying if coming at you from other than head on and not that far away giving it time to flatten down a tad.

<hr width=100% size=1>If it aint broke fix it till it is.
 
"Regarding the wash thing, why are these sail boats out at sea if they cannot handle a foot or so of wash from a passing motorboat?"

This demonstrates the difference between power boat and sailing boat owners, and shows how little you know about sailing boats.
The point is that you spend 20 minutes trimming the sails, getting the best course and settling into a groove where she's sailing nicely - at 5 or 6 Kts, every Kt counts. Along comes a stink boat owner who thinks he's a sailor but doesn't know anything about sailing boats, creates a wash, boat rocks and rolls, loses the groove, virtually stops and you've got to start all over again.
If every time a sailing boat came close to you, your boat suddenly lost engine power and you had to spend 10 minutes getting it going again, wouldn't you get annoyed?

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When driving, and you maintain a safe distance to the car in front, and someone pulls in and cuts your distance by half, do you get annoyed, stressed, flash lights etc ? And end up at destination frazzled ?

Or do you adopt a more philosophical attitude, drop back, and relax ?

Or maybe leave the reduced distance as the new braking zone to psyche out the driver that pulled in...

Point is, although MB's should give sailing vessels a wide berth whenever possible (especially when there's the whole of the Solent to play with), when it's crowded, it's not so easy, and it will only annoy you if you allow it to.

Similarly, when I am returning up Chichester harbour to be faced with a sailing boat under power on completely the wrong side of the channel - I smile, give a friendly wave, and give them the 2-3 feet that they have allowed between themselves, myself, and the green buoys. Accelerating slightly (up to the Harbour speed limit) as you go past gives a little extra accuracy to the steerage.

dv.

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It's all been said before many times, but there is a lot to be said for 'cross cultural' exchanges. Stinkies will never really appreciate the problems even fairly minor wash can cause in calm seas and little wind, whilst raggies are similarly unaware how difficult some stinkie boats are to handle at slow speed in confined situtations.

There are many of us on the forums who have been out on both types, and have a good understanding of the issues with both types. There are a very few who don't seem willing to learn or listen, and it will always be the case.

Funnily enough, just came back from a Berks meet of the Mobo forum fraternity, and we had exactly this conversation

It would be nice to see a lot more people taking trips out on other types of vessels to experience the challenges that they face, and probably would contribute to more tolerance, even though there will always be a few awkward types in both camps

<hr width=100% size=1>Utinam logica falsa tuam philisophiam totam suffodiant
 
QUOTE "Live and let live raggies, if you don't like waves stand on the shore."

What a shame you felt it neccesary to say that. It's the sort of thing that aggravates antagonism between the two groups and gets stink boat owners a bad name. IMHO as a raggie you can tell whether a stink boat skipper is experienced as they are courteous, aware of the problems associated with wash and give you a wide berth. You don't see fishing boats storming past 50 feet away. My last post explains to you why your wake creates problems.
With regard to this quote, it's always been my observation that when the wind pipes up and the waves increase, there's not a stink boat to be seen because they've all dashed back to their moorings.
Raggies don't have the luxury of speed so we're all still out there, sometimes with wave heights that would make you wet yourself. The whole nature of working a sailing boat is that we need high wind speeds to make the boat go and accept the increase in wave height that comes with it. Did you know that the waves are caused by the wind?




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Oh dear, you are an excitable lot aren't you? :-D

This is exactly my point, some people seem to set themselves up to get upset and stamp their feet, a classic example here.

"I have recently moved moorings to a pile near the entrance to the harbour and as said I was working up my mast. I have to be honest I am very worried about motorboat wakes where I am now sited, but so far it has to be said that 99% of all craft leaving or entering did so at well below 4kts which is the limit, they were obviously minding their wakes. I say congratulations to them, and thank you. To the 1% which appeared to be mostly day boats and small (3-4man) ribs, I hope you have expensive engine problems that make you give up the hobby. "

We're talking about a situation out at sea, and you start jumping up and down and waving your arms complaining about a situation you had in a harbour up your mast. To which I say, absolutely right you are too, causing a big wash problem in a confined space amongst moored boats is totally inexcusable.

Now, back to what we were actually talking about shall we? Being out at sea and encountering a motorboat wash.

The situation as described at the beginning of this thread was one where a motorboat passed a sailing boat 35-40 metres away, not because he couldn't be bothered not to, but because of the situation in hand. And I say again, if the yachtsman is unable to cope with this situation then there is something very badly wrong. More likely the yachtsman relishes a good opportunity to wave his fist at the nasty motorboat.

I totally agree that in normal circumstances sailing boats should be given a courteous wide berth, but in situations where this is not possible an experienced yachtsman should be able to understand this and should be able to deal with a bit of wash. Not as satisfying as getting all sanctimonious though for some I guess.

Oh and to all those "you should try it from a sailing boat point of view"s, well, sailing since I was 10, Mirror dinghy, Topper, Laser, then cruising on the family Drascome Lugger (18ft, lifting centre plate, open cockpit and do you know we sailed it at sea and managed to survive the odd powerboat wash too!), then a Hurley 22 for many years and many long coastal passages. That seemed able to cope with a bit of wash too. Helm down, point into the wash, bounce through it for 15 seconds and bear off onto course again. No biggie (unless you're of the mentallity to make it so). Got into motorboats later on (in a bid to actually get somewhere in a weekend!) Enjoyed the sailing though and could get back into it again.

Ari.

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The point not made is that most of the powerboats trailing a wash is because they are not trimmed, normally with a bow pointing skyward, or a displacement boat with the throttles at the stops.
It's not o'dear there's a little wave, I must turn into it, sod's law says you have to put in a tack, when you hit the wave your in mid tack, the boom starts flying, by the time you settle the boat sort it out the boat that caused it is out of site.
On my mates boat he can run 25 /30 knots with hardly a wave by trimming correctly, it's not speed that people moan at, it's the bad skippers who cannot drive.
If they are the ones you support ok.

Brian

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Ari, I don't know how long ago it was that you were sailing and crossing wakes, I had been away from sailing for around 7 years before 2002 and the difference is incredible, things have changed from the point of view of the skipper of a raggie.

I don’t know what boat you have now, nor what kind of cruising you do, but you have to admit that fast boats have multiplied by an incredible amount within the last few years and have become more accessible to many. Unfortunately this also includes for the want of a better word dickheads. I have already said many times over that 99% of stinkpots are handled in an excellent and courteous manner it is as always the minority that cause a problem.

From the raggies point of view, they are now surrounded every weekend by the sound of gurgling and throbbing from stinkpots, but that is ok, we sail out further normally and escape it, but when coastal we have to watch like a hawk for those who don’t know how their wakes affect us. I am not stupid, I know there are times when the power boats have no choice but to pass me close enough that I will cross their wakes, it is the ones who make no effort to minimise their effects upon us, by the sounds of it, you and people like you who think it is your God given right to pass as close as you like at whatever speed, because they are only waves.

An example, last year we went for a leisurely sail in Tremadog Bay, there was around 7 – 8 kts of wind and we were going nowhere fast, but it was sunny and warm and we were in no rush. We sailed towards Cricceith at around 2-3 knots and were enjoying sitting in the cockpit drinking cool drinks and relaxing in the quiet.

Nope! Every 10 minutes or so a stinkpot would come out from the shore at full pelt, circle us and head back in again, he had no business being there except to use us as a moving waypoint, something to come and have a nose at. Silence broken, drinks over the cockpit floor, dogs frightened stiff, boom swinging about. We were not allowed piece because everyone has the right to use the water, yes!

After a day of that, and you pass a raggie on your way back to the marina and he waves his fist, consider he may have been clearing up crockery all day because he should be expecting a few waves when a stinkpot goes past, his relaxing weekend has been made to sound like a formula 1 bike race.

It is all about consideration, you have decided that you do not need to consider sailing boats in open water, I am just glad that 99% of stinkpot owners will disagree with you.

As a footnote, with an attitude like yours, do you really think it surprising that most raggies appear to welcome a huge hike in red diesel prices?


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Jools,

nice to know raggies out there that are tolerant and can state things cooly and with respect to all other water user. You are a good amassador to all things raggie, and I'm disappointed that there are a few stinkies who seem delighted to put us in a poor light. Only a very few think that way, or even act that way

<hr width=100% size=1>Utinam logica falsa tuam philisophiam totam suffodiant
 
I write:-

"causing a big wash problem in a confined space amongst moored boats is totally inexcusable. "

and

"I totally agree that in normal circumstances sailing boats should be given a courteous wide berth, but in situations where this is not possible an experienced yachtsman should be able to understand this and should be able to deal with a bit of wash."

You put:-

"It is all about consideration, you have decided that you do not need to consider sailing boats in open water, I am just glad that 99% of stinkpot owners will disagree with you."



Which nicely proves my point (thank you for that) as it is of course is of course not remotely what I wrote!!!!

I think everyone should consider everyone, the powerboat should consider the yachtsmans postion but also the yachtsman should accept that the powerboat has a right to be there too.

As you've completely proved, you're more interested in having a go at me and labelling me with the minority of idiots on the water (which I totally agree exist, both in power and sail circles) because I made a point that doesn't fit in with your sanctimonious position (ie you've got to expect and be able to cope with a bit of wash occasionally) than having a reasoned debate.

This thread was started with the conversation about the chap who passed by a yacht who's helmsman got all upset, not because he couldn't be bothered to go around but because of the circumstances he was in. My point is not to defend blasting by yachts at close range (which I most certaqinly don't, despite the labelling you've decided to put on me, sod the facts eh?) but to point out that in circumstances where it is neccesary due to navigational issues, as long as it isn't stupidly close then some yachtsmen need to realise that they must learn to deal with a few waves and not use it as an excuse to get all hot under the collar and shake their fist. These are the guys promoting the power/sail divide that they seem to delight in, not me (as I say, I like both).

A situation such as you describe whereby someone uses you as a marker to charge around is totally inexcusable but thats not what we were discussing, just like we weren't discussing throwing up a big wash passed moored boats (the other example you've thrown into the discussion).

Happy sailing.

Ari.

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"I have already said many times over that 99% of stinkpots are handled in an excellent and courteous manner it is as always the minority that cause a problem."


Just like the Raggie 2 away from us in Ocean Villiage that doesn't realise his Nav lights are fitted back to front!! I don't want to point it out 'cause as a "Stinkie" what do I know????????

As a matter of interest what speed should we slow to? Like the previous postings have said... between 10 to 15 knots we make huge wake.





<hr width=100% size=1>Andy M
 
It's not about slowing down to a particular speed, or even slowing down to reduce wash (because as lots of people have pointed out it makes little difference), it's about demonstrating that you've seen the other boat (motor or sail) and are "doing your bit" to cause the minimum disruption. Same as not tacking across another boats bows, getting your nav lights the right way round etc etc etc.

But what do you care "...You can't hear them screaming above the whines of the turbo's anyhow!!!!..."

Very constructive.


<hr width=100% size=1>"I am a bear of very little brain and long words bother me..."
 
"I have already said many times over that 99% of stinkpots are handled in an excellent and courteous manner it is as always the minority that cause a problem."


I would put that figure nearer to 75%. What do other raggies reckon?

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The one thing we all have in common.
We enjoy boating whether it be by sail or power,
So if we all TRY do things in a CONSIDERATE WAY, show we have seen situations, i.e. slow down, alter course I do not see a problem,
There will always be a time when this is not possible due to circumstances beyond our control.
So some tolerance from both sides is needed.
Who wants to go out on the water with a grudge it spoils your enjoyment of the sport and of those around you to.


<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://powerskipper.mysite.freeserve.com/>http://powerskipper.mysite.freeserve.com/</A>
Julie
 
Doesn't seem to bother them too much when you're following a raggie down the Itchen or Hamble at 5 - 6knts and they decide without any signals, (anybody heard a horn, indicating intention on a sailboat recently?) at all, not even looking around to see whats following them, and tack straight across you. Thus literally stopping dead in the water. 12tonne of F43 takes some diverting when this happens and then, when you do accomplish it, all the other raggies moored on piles in the vicinity have a right go at you 'cos your avoiding action created wash!!

Beats me why any decent sized sail boat with an outboard obviously strapped to the stern, insists on "Sailing" up a river like the Hamble anyway??

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"Thus literally stopping dead in the water. 12tonne of F43 takes some diverting when this happens and then, when you do accomplish it, all the other raggies moored on piles in the vicinity have a right go at you 'cos your avoiding action created wash!!"

Exactly my point, bless 'em a lot of them can't wait to jump up and down and get all steamed up cos a "stinkpot" dared ruffle "their" water.

Classic example, I was pootling quietly down a river once, late evening in the summer after a very pleasant day on the water. It was still light and I was passing a row of moored boats on a pontoon in the river, you know the type, harbour authority, concrete top probably 150+ foot long, boats moored to it either side. The pontoon was on my starboard side and on my port in the middle of the river and facing downstream (the way I was going) was a small yacht under power faffing about and stationary. Suddenly he turns to starboard and starts heading toward me. I look around and to my starboard is an empty berth on this pontoon with a fellow yachtsman stood waiting to take lines.

Now it was pretty obvious that I was directly in the path of his intended direction toward the berth. If he'd bothered to check he'd have seen me before he started toward the berth and waited for 10 seconds until I was clear (I was only travelling at a couple of knots). So, best course of action for me, open the throttle a little and get clear of his path, no problem at all so I did, thinking no more of it. As soon as I was clear (maybe 5 seconds) I dropped back to my gentle 2 knots potter (it was a beautiful still night, I was passing moored boats and in no particular hurry).

Next thing I hear is this shouting from fellow yachtie on the pontoon. Genuinely bemused I turn round to see what the fuss is (yacht is alongside now). As I get closer Mr. Yachtie is dancing the hornpipe and shouting "Watch your speed you **** do you want to throw me off this pontoon rant rant"

At which point I politely pointed out that that since I was in a very small inflatable dinghy with a little outboard on the back I was hardly likely to even move the pontoon, much less toss someone off it.

And this is my point, some people seem to think they have this masterfulness because they are (all bow) "yachtsmen" and how dare anyone with an engine and no sails (or the unpure as we're probably known) even dream of causing them the least inconvenience (even if, actually, we haven't).

I find this attitude very sad, a boat is a boat as far as I'm concerned, I'll go out of my way to help anyone afloat and I certainly won't use the excuse that they're not in a "proper" boat to rant.

And this is my whole point, I'm absolutely sure that even out at sea a lot of these yachtsmen will find any excuse to jump up and down and shake their fist just because a powerboat is in the vacinity and they might get a few little waves come by. Live with it guys, it's the sea!

As I say, very sad...

Anyway, I'm sure there are those who will steadfastly refuse to see that I have a point and due to the bizarre nature of this forum where any post more than a few hours old gets sunk to page two or three rather than returning to the top upon a fresh reply I think I'll give up on this subject now as I doubt very many people are even aware that this conversation is even going on. I'm sure the yachties will still be ranting long into the future, bless 'em, best just give them a cheery wave and let them get on with it.

Have fun on the water and keep smiling!

Ari.

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"Could you give an example please?"

Oh dear I'm such a sucker for this! Having said I've said my last....

Out at sea, wide channel, speed 25 knots, sandbank on port side, clear but shallower water to starboard, large container ship astern travelling in same direction, fleet of racing yachts bearing down on my starboard side. I can continue at 25 knots and be well clear of the fleet of yachts, I can even open the throttles to ensure this (ooohh the wash, the horror!!!), I can slow down and find myself in the midst of this fleet of yachts all about to tack (sandbank to port remember, they won't be going much further) or I can stop right in front of the container ship which is progresing up the channel. No wash but the container ship will probably end up wearing me...

So, which is it to be Mr. Yachtmaster? :-D

Ari.

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